Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

[Nuriko]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Rue the day? Who TALKS like that?

[Kitalrez]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Is one of you going to draw blood soon? I mean, seriously, this is like the most boring fight I've ever witnessed. Almost seems like the 10 minute pre-match chest thumping you get on "pro" wrestling matches.

"You will RUE THE DAY you hid the remote from THE FLATULATOR!"

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Want balance lets take every class and make them into 3:

Mage - Cast all magic
Tank - A paladin fused with a 75 ninja
DD- does all damage hits at one speed for the same amount of damage, with the same acc, ws for a set amount.

Gear and weapons! they dont affect anything, just for looks!

Also you cant exp or do anything without 2 mages 1 tank and 3 dd, anything also you don't level or merit just a shell, but its even!

[Ziero]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

How am I supposed to build a party when only meleeburn elitists seek? I don't want to put together a front line only for them to drop party the instant they see the BLM, or demand that the BLM heal even though I'm there, or scream bloody murder or just keep pulling the first time a mage needs to sit for more than one tick.

Invite people you know? I mean if this is such a major complaint that people are calling for a nerf to something which can help everyone get through one of the biggest grindfests in this game just a bit faster, then it shouldn't be as impossible as you say to build an old fashion party.

A nerf is one way the system could be made fair, and the simplest. A system in which party styles are vastly imbalanced and in the dominant one THFs must struggle to use their JAs at all and can't close skillchains, RDMs never get to enfeeble, WHMs are third choice for healing, BLMs can't magic burst or even attempt to seek each other out lest they be invited to heal, PLDs can't tank, BRDs can't get a moment's peace, SMNs can't summon, BLUs can't get parties at all, and sticking to a preference for wanting to do any of the above will get you no invites instead of an invite to a ghetto party isn't what I'd call a fair system. I would be open to other ways to make the system fair -- for instance, a parallel seek system so meleeburners don't see non-meleeburn seekers and thus have no chance of assuming they're doing them a favor by inviting them to a meleeburn.

A nerf to hurt the majority so the minority can have a bit more fun doing something that's always going to be monotonous and boring? Yea, no thanks. Exp is one small facet of this game that serves a major purpose but is not nearly what people should be focused on. If a player can't adapt slightly for this one situation that will allow them to participate in the other 90% of this game's activities then they're the ones with the problem. "Meleeburns", as you keep calling them, can work with almost every job in the game, where as Traditional parties *can't* work without very specific classes. And I don't know about you, but I would rather be able not have to call off a pt with 5 members just because there's no Pld or Nin seeking, or because we can't grab a Brd or a Rdm...which btw, still happens.

There are plenty of other places a Thf can close SCs, a Rdm can enfeeble, a Pld can tank and a Brd can sit on their ass, but when I'm in an exp party, I want exp. The faster the better, so I can leave that grind and go do something else. Regardless of whether it's done through a traditional party or a tp burn.

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

There are lots of people who do

Then why is it that the majority of time when I seek in a pair and both of our comments refer to each other's name, level, TNL, and say {Are you alone?} X, 80% of the invites we get are for only one of us? The emphasis couldn't be any greater in the space provided.

While not being a direct translation, it is well understood.

So how do I get across that I'm interested in manaburns and not meleeburns in the space provided in a way that isn't liable to confuse JPs, then?

So your jobist!

...No, I just want a party where people stop once in a while and don't grumble when MP becomes an issue. If it's because their MP is the issue instead of mine, that'd do it. Thus, I see both trad-parties and manaburns as perfectly good options, and meleeburn as not.

There will always be a current standards, like parting without a black mage back in the day was gimping yourself. People do it and will always work to playing to the standard, you have to build your parties to cut your seeking time.

How am I supposed to build a party when only meleeburn elitists seek? I don't want to put together a front line only for them to drop party the instant they see the BLM, or demand that the BLM heal even though I'm there, or scream bloody murder or just keep pulling the first time a mage needs to sit for more than one tick.

I am using that arguement because, the non-meleeburn people are the ones who bitch and want nerf's on ever damn thread. I have always said and stood behind play your way, it is not always going to be the most popular so you may have to work for it. Working for it is not bitching for a nerf and crying like emo kids.

A nerf is one way the system could be made fair, and the simplest. A system in which party styles are vastly imbalanced and in the dominant one THFs must struggle to use their JAs at all and can't close skillchains, RDMs never get to enfeeble, WHMs are third choice for healing, BLMs can't magic burst or even attempt to seek each other out lest they be invited to heal, PLDs can't tank, BRDs can't get a moment's peace, SMNs can't summon, BLUs can't get parties at all, and sticking to a preference for wanting to do any of the above will get you no invites instead of an invite to a ghetto party isn't what I'd call a fair system. I would be open to other ways to make the system fair -- for instance, a parallel seek system so meleeburners don't see non-meleeburn seekers and thus have no chance of assuming they're doing them a favor by inviting them to a meleeburn.

Blu actually is very mp efficent if you don't spam your spells,

And then you can't keep up with everyone else's damage output.

also being a jack of all trades, it can fill alot of spots.

Which also call for MP usage, which is a sin in meleeburn. -- Pteryx

[Ziero]

Re: Everyone bitching about the same damn things again

No, they're worse and worse in proportion, at that. BRD is levelled for merits and generally geared with no respect to its specialization. Melees used to put some thought in to accuracy gear, but now even at merit levels they're crying to BRDs and CORs for accuracy buffs on mobs they should be able to hit just fine on their own.

And you're full of it. There have always, always, ALWAYS been a glut of crappy players who could not do anything without specific party members. Only *good* players ever put any thought into gear, then and now. To say TP burns dumbed down the populace, when the populace was already borderline retarded is just a fallacy.

[i]Look, dimwit, they nerfed TWO JOBs - one to the point it was completely broken for TWO YEARS, the other only was marginally effected by gradual, built up NM magic resistance. Then not eight months later after the totally destroyed RNG, they turn around and say "Hey, TP burn is OK and we're not punishing the other jobs for it, oh, and BLMs we're fucking you over from 55 to 75."

I'm talking about BLATANT HYPOCRISY in design and execution. Either burns are bad or burns are good. I'm talking about what was unfair. The nerf itself was a slap in the face, ToA added insult to injury by letting others enjoy what RNG was punished for.

Funny, cause all of my Rng friends seemed to have no problem blowing crap away. And every pt I've had with a decently equiped Rng had them always pulling hate, even from good Plds and other Heavy DDs. I mean with all those squishy birds and mobs weak to piercing, I never saw a Rng suffer too much in ToAU.

Apparently you're forgetting those days where the *only* jobs that could burn were War at 75 in sky, Mnk at 75 on bones, Blm at almost any lvl and Rng at almost any lvl. There were people who would not Exp unless you had at least two Rngs in the pt, oh, and a Brd.

Either you're chronically unemployed or you don't get it. Even with friends, this is a bitch and a half to plan around given all the other stuff that must be organized and planned around.

You. Got. Lucky. Period.

Actually I've been working a 40 hour a week job for the past 6 years and don't even play FFXI every day. But it's not hard to go to your LS, find people with lvl 60ish jobs and tell them "We're doing Assaults every Thisday and Thatday". You then drag anyone who doesn't have all their other points to get them (I've gotten every one over a dozen times now) and then *stick to the plan*. Every Thisday and this time you get on, with your gear and drag any LS member who wants to go into Assaults. You don't need 6, you can choose your missions after you get your members and then you go and do them. And then every Thatday, you repeat the process. If there are times you don't have enough then you skip one day but try again the next.

LUCK HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

The majority of mages and tanks disagree with you. And pardon me for being so bold, our jobs are far more crucial to this game than the dime-a-dozen melee.

Is that the heart of it all? Your personal diva complex?

You clearly don't know shit about PLD, NIN, BLM, RNG or BST's situation. Have you even soloed a level before. BLM used to get PTs from the Dunes onward, now they're hardly invited for that stretch of the game. If they are invited, they are invited as healers.

Actually I solo all the time. It's slow, it's risky, but it's how I prefer to exp because I don't like dealing with random idiots. Infact I was soloing on my 29 Drk just last night on Sheep in past Gusta. Got near two lvls while I waited for LS members to gear up their 30ish jobs so we can pt. It was a group I set up that day by asking "Anyone have any lvl 30ish jobs they want to lvl?" People said "Sure, just not at the moment" so I went and soloed until a friend logged on, then me and him joined a pt of random people...then left that pt cause they were idiots who had no clue what they were doing, then joined up with 3 others from my LS and my NPC and C5'd T-IT sahagin with only one healer. It was, by all intensive purposes, a TP burn at lvl 30 and we made well over 10k in the hour we were pt. At one point, myself as a Drk/War, the Drg/War and the Nin trioed an IT Mnk Sahagin while the healer and other DD were AFK.

So, stop assuming things. K?

Do you think I like them in my camps soloing as a BST any more than I enjoy getting completely ignored for invites while I have my flag up? Think I like it any better that I'm totally not wanted as a BST for endgame? Shit, your THF is just tagged in to get on the hate list for drops at the end, that must thrill you. That's a pretty cushy gig, not even having to fight the mob and being totally replaced by /THF sub.

Seeing as how I do everything with friends I get to enjoy my TH whoring. Though I will admit that I do love being able to pretty much solo some assaults due to my Thfy awesomeness. Not everyone and everything in this game is about killing the biggest and the baddest and getting the best gear. I have the most fun when I do things with my friends.

God forbid PTs be any fun.

You're totally on your own page, man. No one is demanding PTs be "fun," we're asking for PTs to employ real strategy and mechanics again. We want PTs to be involving and interesting - that is not the same thing as "fun."

TP burns ARE a real strategy and mechanic in this game. It's going after weaker mobs to maximize the PC to Mob stat ratio in the players favor, and killing them in quick succession to maximize the Exp per kill through constant chains. And as far as I'm concerned a good TP burn is more involving then a slower pt because it means I have to always be paying attention.

People who take up tank jobs, you know, tend to like TANKING. Asking a TANK to DD is as awkward asking a BLM to main heal. If I were to come to your job (assuming you have one) and suggest you started working the opposite of your intended hired position instead of what you were hired for, wouldn't that just throw you off a little.

People want to so what they signed up for. Variety is fine, but not so long as it constantly strays from your intended role.

Well gee, I didn't know that Exp was the only thing in this game a Pld could tank. I guess that all those missions and NMs and HNMs and besiege and assaults and campaigns and quests and BCNMs and ISNM and Nyzul and Salvage and Dynamis and Limbus etc etc etc don't count as tanking then huh? I mean forgive me for not being too upset when, for this one situation, we ask the Pld to drop the shield, grab a second sword, throw on a Hauby and go to town on some mobs so they can get the fastest exp possible.

Time is also not skill. Beating Proto-Omega once is just as hard as beating him 100 times (in fact, the first kill is the hardest because you don't have any of the drops or as much experience with the fight), but it won't equip your linkshell nearly as well for the next mob to come along. The same applies to all other mobs and content.

Actually I feel that a LS that can consistently take down all the big mobs in the game has accomplished something. It's certainly not easy to make, and keep, one of those LS's going.

There's really no reason not to make HNM drops 100% (or even give every member a ticket for the reward of their choice, the way avatar fights work already) - a group who beats DL repeatedly isn't any more worthy than someone who beats him once, they just have more time to throw at the problem. Making Shadow Mantle a random drop makes *exactly* as much sense as making Fenrir summon a random drop. So why did SE do one and not the other?

Because the Avatars give crap rewards compared to many of these HNMs? But I mean sure, why not, lets just give everyone the best gear in the game, that'll certainly make things more fun...right?

Why should those types of parties make less exp per hour than a meleeburn? And why should the differences be so huge?

Why shouldn't SE adjust the exp system so that *different kinds of parties* can make *similar* exp/hr? Even if they don't get it exactly identical for every party setup (and even if some setups deserve to fail - although I would include setups with no tank or hate control and few defensive jobs in the "deserve to fail" category, myself, so maybe this principle should be applied sparingly), there's tremendous room for improvement.

As long as Exp gain in Exp pts is dependant solely on killing a mob, then the best pts for Exping in will be those who kill the fastest. And until there is a massive overhaul in the way things exp...and not something simple like adding an Exp bonus to SCs, I mean like making it more like how you gain Exp in Besiege or Campaign...then fast killing, all go no slow, DD heavy Exp pts will always be the best.

But from your comments, it seems you want to go back to the days of not being able to make an Exp pt because you can't find two healers and a tank.

SE could introduce even godlier exp rings at the same time and give everyone more total exp/hr, or reduce exp requirements again and knock merits down to 5k limit points so you actually did more to advance your character even with less exp/hr - it wouldn't matter, as long as different party setups were closer together, I'd be happier with it. You getting good exp doesn't *have* to be defined in reference to other jobs (or people without as much gear to throw at the problem) getting crappy exp.

All of those ideas would also increase the Exp gained by TP burns exponentially. So the gap would still be there, it's just the lower common denominator would be raised. Though fyi, a good traditional party can still rake in tons of Exp as well.

If you agree that "not everyone has the same idea of fun", then why should the best exp/hr rates be reserved for a very narrow range of party setups that many jobs are just not welcome in, and others perform poorly at best?

Because it's already been proven that most jobs are fully capable of succeeding in TP burn situations? If these jobs aren't getting invites, it's not because of the job, it's because of the player base's misconceptions. See: Drgs pre ToAU.[/QUOTE]

I have to say that what I resent the most is the implication that just because a job can meleeburn in theory, even if it's by doing something completely different than they signed up on the job to do, that they not only should, but should at the very least should feel neutral about it, if not be awed by the numbers passing by. "Not everyone has the same idea of fun"? That's exactly my point! Why are you using that argument to claim that we're wrong for liking something you don't like and wanting to be able to do it without those like you ganging up and beating on us in the playground corner?

You're "wrong" for saying that just because something that isn't fun, but still highly beneficial to you, while being fun and highly beneficial to the majority of the player base is somehow some sort of broken, exploited, gimp-producing problem that is in horrible need of fixing.

Whenever some newb comes in here and tells us he wants to be a War/Blm with a staff because "it's fun to him" we reply "No, don't do that, use a Gaxe, it's better for you and your pt". Why do we do that? Because we want to ensure he's at his maximum potential as well as any PT he joins. So when you come in and complain "I want to only do traditional parties cause it's more fun!" people say "Do TP burns, they're better for you and your PT." Just like a Staff wielding War/Blm is limited by the numbers in game, Traditional Exp pts are also limited by the numbers in game. Until there is some way to gain Exp through defensive means, then a slower, tank/x2 support based exp pt will never gain the amount of Exp as a TP burn.

Here's a thought for those of you who think that everything is going as planned: if SE intended for zero-downtime meleeburn dominance to happen, then why did they introduce BLU in the same expansion as imps and colibri? -- Pteryx

Because Blu rock on both of those moreso then many DDs. Hell Imps and Colibri are killer on Sams, Thfs, Drks and such. Locking of JAs and WS while eating our food AND Tp, these mobs are made to give Melees a hard time. But Blus can get around those problems without any effort.

You guys got what you wanted, now we're trying to find a way to fight it because you also learned what my BRD learned back then - these PTs get monotonus and boring. There were days I'd turn down arrowburn because it made my BRD feel like nothing more than a puller. I'd take PTs that allowed me to cycle different buffs. I'd take the "slower" PTs, yeah.

ALL Exp PTs get monotonus and boring. Even in a Traditional SC+MB pt it still just comes down to players waiting and pressing the same old macros time and time again. If anything TP burns are more exciting because there is no downtime, there is no "(|Let's rest for a while|)" after every 3-4 kills, you're constantly fighting and you're constantly moving, all the while your Tnl is dropping like a rock without you even realizing it. So please, tell me exactly what is so refreshing and exciting about making the same old SC, using the same old songs and resting every every few fights.

[Sevv]

Re: Everyone bitching about the same damn things again

[/LIST]If you really believe what you just said, then I'm certain you, as a WAR, would have no issues in inviting your PLDs to LS merit PTs for buffer? You would static with BLMs being levelled up to ensure they got to 75 quickly as opposed to expecting them to solo alllllll they way from low level. Because, if you don't static with them, they will have ot solo.

Actually, I help my Paladins get their buffers back once a week on Warrior or Bard. Pld/Nin burn was one of the better ways in terms of fun. The last few people who leveled Black Mage to 75 in my ls I helped them on my Bard in their manaburn static. BBQ you know that I tend to help my linkshell members out so, if this was meant to try and get me to say no, just used it on the wrong end gamer.

See, Endgame/HNMLSes LOVE to have PLDs and BLMs, but my observations have revealed most people couldn't give two shits about meritting with either of them. BLM has a pot of gold at the end of thier rainbow - its called Mount Z, but its a hell of a crawl to get there and now you have all these SCHs that breezed by on Main Heal and are crawling all over that area now too. PUPs sometimes as well.

If endgame LSes care about keeping these critical jobs, they need to support them. PLDs in particular have EVERY right to bitch about not getting merit PTs, they take on more death at endgame than most of the other jobs do.

Some linkshells do support them, like my linkshell does. Some people could really care less about others just like in real life, no leader or officer can force members to party with paladins or black mages.

Hello, this is reality calling, this never happened during ToA. Do I need to bring VZX and other RNGs in here? We got our accuracy fixed - which SE was quite content to leave broken for almost two years - but we still didn't have the ability to keep up with merit PTs until days before WotG came out and we got Velocity Shot.

Took two and a half years to get arrowburn back and it never happened during ToA.

Well damn, I must have been doing something wrong leveling my rng. Those birds pre velocity shot sure as hell went down fast rngx4 pld rdm.

And again, we were punished for what happened in RoZ/CoP camps and forced to deal with it for far too long. FFXI's RNG nerf is legendary for its overkill in the MMO community. Accuracy formula left broken for almost two years. TWO YEARS. Meanwhile all the other jobs are given what was taken away from it. That's horseshit.

It may be in the past now, but the hypocrisy of the design and the impact of the nerf is still felt today to an extent.

Are you still going on about this? I would think after hundreds of posts about this you may be over it by now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Everyone bitching about the same damn things again

• To do almost anything in this game: Mages, Tanks, and DD's are needed they all have their places. People bitch that Paladin and Black Mage get no ToAU loving. Personally fighting vts on Pld made for less deaths and faster exp, I also made the effort to put together a Burn set up and have had little to no problems. Black Mages got alot of burnable and soloable mobs in ToAU and can pull some serious exp/hr out there.

If you really believe what you just said, then I'm certain you, as a WAR, would have no issues in inviting your PLDs to LS merit PTs for buffer? You would static with BLMs being levelled up to ensure they got to 75 quickly as opposed to expecting them to solo alllllll they way from low level. Because, if you don't static with them, they will have ot solo.

See, Endgame/HNMLSes LOVE to have PLDs and BLMs, but my observations have revealed most people couldn't give two shits about meritting with either of them. BLM has a pot of gold at the end of thier rainbow - its called Mount Z, but its a hell of a crawl to get there and now you have all these SCHs that breezed by on Main Heal and are crawling all over that area now too. PUPs sometimes as well.

If endgame LSes care about keeping these critical jobs, they need to support them. PLDs in particular have EVERY right to bitch about not getting merit PTs, they take on more death at endgame than most of the other jobs do.

Rangers being punished by ToAU, Hi guys this is the game calling, the majority of the merit mobs are weak to peircing and flying, please learn to make those arrow burns again and watch how much exp/hr you get.

Hello, this is reality calling, this never happened during ToA. Do I need to bring VZX and other RNGs in here? We got our accuracy fixed - which SE was quite content to leave broken for almost two years - but we still didn't have the ability to keep up with merit PTs until days before WotG came out and we got Velocity Shot.

Took two and a half years to get arrowburn back and it never happened during ToA.

And again, we were punished for what happened in RoZ/CoP camps and forced to deal with it for far too long. FFXI's RNG nerf is legendary for its overkill in the MMO community. Accuracy formula left broken for almost two years. TWO YEARS. Meanwhile all the other jobs are given what was taken away from it. That's horseshit.

It may be in the past now, but the hypocrisy of the design and the impact of the nerf is still felt today to an extent.

If anyone had asked what life would be like if everyone could burn, anyone that did arrownburn back in RoZ/CoP could have told you how pointless it would be for RDM to enfeeble. SMNs would tell you they were a curebot and nothing but. And all of them would tell you the common prey was VT, that skillchains did not exist and that the RNGs tanked just as much as the PLD or NIN did.

Sound familiar?

Its ancient history, the difference now is that these issues are more widely felt by the community that when it was exclusive to a handful of jobs.

You guys got what you wanted, now we're trying to find a way to fight it because you also learned what my BRD learned back then - these PTs get monotonus and boring. There were days I'd turn down arrowburn because it made my BRD feel like nothing more than a puller. I'd take PTs that allowed me to cycle different buffs. I'd take the "slower" PTs, yeah.

And I had fun.

It just stopped being fun when i realized I was a merit tool and balladbot at endgame.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

OK, I stand corrected on SCH.

As for the idea of merely seeking with search comments, there are four problems with that. One, lots of people don't even bother to read search comments to begin with.

There are lots of people who do, and ya Sch is sick.

Two, does {Burn} {Party} even mean the same thing to JPs?

While not being a direct translation, it is well understood.

Three, I'm open to manaburns; it's meleeburns I don't want to be in.

So your jobist!

Four -- this is the key one -- using this method opens one to the criticism of the majority. By putting up your seek flag and refusing parties on the grounds that you don't want to be part of the most popular kind, you frustrate and enrage party leaders and probably undermine your own reputation. By publically stating a preference for traditional parties, you invite the condescending "correction" of your tastes from your peers ("dude ur gimping ur own XP", "u dont deserve invites", "why u not like it, its easy", "go get better friends", etc.). Because of this, we can't even network -- meleeburn elitists have taken over the tools players are supposed to use to do so, and will tolerate no one else using them.

There will always be a current standards, like parting without a black mage back in the day was gimping yourself. People do it and will always work to playing to the standard, you have to build your parties to cut your seeking time.

I have to say that what I resent the most is the implication that just because a job can meleeburn in theory, even if it's by doing something completely different than they signed up on the job to do, that they not only should, but should at the very least should feel neutral about it, if not be awed by the numbers passing by. "Not everyone has the same idea of fun"? That's exactly my point! Why are you using that argument to claim that we're wrong for liking something you don't like and wanting to be able to do it without those like you ganging up and beating on us in the playground corner?

I am using that arguement because, the non-meleeburn people are the ones who bitch and want nerf's on ever damn thread. I have always said and stood behind play your way, it is not always going to be the most popular so you may have to work for it. Working for it is not bitching for a nerf and crying like emo kids.

Here's a thought for those of you who think that everything is going as planned: if SE intended for zero-downtime meleeburn dominance to happen, then why did they introduce BLU in the same expansion as imps and colibri? -- Pteryx

Blu actually is very mp efficent if you don't spam your spells, also being a jack of all trades, it can fill alot of spots.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

("dude ur gimping ur own XP", "u dont deserve invites", "why u not like it, its easy", "go get better friends", etc.)

My god... it's like you've been chronicling my in-game and Ventrilo conversations.

[Sevv]

Re: Exp, balance, fun, and other eternal issues

I agree that melee burn (both exp and hnm) is all about the gear. Gear is not skill. Thanks for playing.

Especially when you get that gear by having the best claimbot on the server (ridill, adaberk, d-ring etc.), buying gil (some relics), or other illegitimate means (ls's with a distribution system that amounts to a pyramid scheme; some relics in this category too).

Time is also not skill. Beating Proto-Omega once is just as hard as beating him 100 times (in fact, the first kill is the hardest because you don't have any of the drops or as much experience with the fight), but it won't equip your linkshell nearly as well for the next mob to come along. The same applies to all other mobs and content.

There's really no reason not to make HNM drops 100% (or even give every member a ticket for the reward of their choice, the way avatar fights work already) - a group who beats DL repeatedly isn't any more worthy than someone who beats him once, they just have more time to throw at the problem. Making Shadow Mantle a random drop makes *exactly* as much sense as making Fenrir summon a random drop. So why did SE do one and not the other?

Making uber-gear scarce doesn't reduce the balance problems introduced by its existence; it worsens them. By opening up gaps between different players and groups of players, it makes it difficult or impossible to balance content for all of them. If everyone had Ridill, endgame content would be designed around it, and people who had a bunch of them wouldn't tp burn mobs that are supposed to be HNMs. On the other hand, if you design content for gear that lots of people *don't* have, then you potentially stick some people with not having good enough gear to do the fights that get better gear.

Ok so you agreed with me that hnm really doesn't take skill just time, yay? The first kill is always the hardest, that post was in response to people saying that they wanted to list the mobs I have not tp burned, and I responded with the list and said Endgame isn't hard. I can kill Nidhogg in under 10 min someone else could take 59 min they both accomplish the same thing. Nothing in this game takes skill really and honestly FFXI is not hard.

Why should those types of parties make less exp per hour than a meleeburn? And why should the differences be so huge?

Honestly, the difference isn't huge if you take great melees and put them in a standard pt and you focus on VTs. Any job at 75 in a good party can get 20k + an hour, it is not difficult, but the parties you see getting less, are scalably worse. No support class jobs will take off a chunk of your exp, taking away a DD removes your exp. It is not that the parties are worse, it is your taking out a dd for a pld or a brd for a pld etc.

Why shouldn't SE adjust the exp system so that *different kinds of parties* can make *similar* exp/hr? Even if they don't get it exactly identical for every party setup (and even if some setups deserve to fail - although I would include setups with no tank or hate control and few defensive jobs in the "deserve to fail" category, myself, so maybe this principle should be applied sparingly), there's tremendous room for improvement.

You also have to view your comparing the best DD's gear wise with support to a party of less geared players, If they were equally geared then the exp should be similar but you have to scale in the removing damage for a tank. Also would have to scale everything. It is alot more complicated of why the exp is different then just "I WANT MOAR GIMMIE". Hell S-E should give us every job at 75 all the merits and all the gear to play that would be fair!

Every job should be part of at least some party setups that get a desirable rate of exp/hr in a camp appropriate to that party setup (compared to what else is possible for that level; of course the appropriate camps need not be the same, and ideally shouldn't be, to alleviate congestion). As many party setups as possible should make similar and competitive rates of exp/hr in the camps appropriate to each of them. Those are my goals for the exp system, and the current system is a very long way from them. I've suggested nerfing the upward outliers simply because it's simpler and less likely to get screwed up than trying to buff everything *except* meleeburns. SE could introduce even godlier exp rings at the same time and give everyone more total exp/hr, or reduce exp requirements again and knock merits down to 5k limit points so you actually did more to advance your character even with less exp/hr - it wouldn't matter, as long as different party setups were closer together, I'd be happier with it. You getting good exp doesn't *have* to be defined in reference to other jobs (or people without as much gear to throw at the problem) getting crappy exp.

Almost every job can get 20k/hr w/o any major effort. The only jobs that don't get this on average is beast and puppetmaster, but that is the price of soloing. Jobs are not spammed invites not because of S-E but because of players, period.

I admit, I played the world's tiniest violin for BLMs for a while, considering that of their former HNM, BCNM and exp dominance, they have really only lost the latter (except in hnmls's that are insanely overgeared for the fight they are doing, and even then it depends on the fight). But it's gone too far - they're not just not gods anymore, they're actively shunned, and no job deserves that. Not even the ones who exploited BCNM imbalances to rip off 50% of the profits of other players' hard-earned kindred seals.

They are not fully shunned compared to the days of old yes they are, but for most of the time soloing is actually quicker then parties. Not to mention they can makes parties and they can manaburn for 20k/hr or even heard soling for 17k+/hr.

If you agree that "not everyone has the same idea of fun", then why should the best exp/hr rates be reserved for a very narrow range of party setups that many jobs are just not welcome in, and others perform poorly at best?

Their will always be a gap between the best of the best and the normal. There should be a gap otherwise what is the reason to put forth any effort.

Exp is a special case because you not only can't buy and sell it, you can't even transfer it from job to job on the same character. So every job *has* to be able to make its own, and their relative effectiveness at doing so is *always* important.

Every job can make great exp, if you know how to builf parties, hell unloved jobs: Pld Sam Thf Dnc Rdm Whm, and I am getting 15k/hr in the late 50's. Knowing the game is half the battle.

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

OK, I stand corrected on SCH.

As for the idea of merely seeking with search comments, there are four problems with that. One, lots of people don't even bother to read search comments to begin with. Two, does {Burn} {Party} even mean the same thing to JPs? Three, I'm open to manaburns; it's meleeburns I don't want to be in. Four -- this is the key one -- using this method opens one to the criticism of the majority. By putting up your seek flag and refusing parties on the grounds that you don't want to be part of the most popular kind, you frustrate and enrage party leaders and probably undermine your own reputation. By publically stating a preference for traditional parties, you invite the condescending "correction" of your tastes from your peers ("dude ur gimping ur own XP", "u dont deserve invites", "why u not like it, its easy", "go get better friends", etc.). Because of this, we can't even network -- meleeburn elitists have taken over the tools players are supposed to use to do so, and will tolerate no one else using them.

I have to say that what I resent the most is the implication that just because a job can meleeburn in theory, even if it's by doing something completely different than they signed up on the job to do, that they not only should, but should at the very least should feel neutral about it, if not be awed by the numbers passing by. "Not everyone has the same idea of fun"? That's exactly my point! Why are you using that argument to claim that we're wrong for liking something you don't like and wanting to be able to do it without those like you ganging up and beating on us in the playground corner?

Here's a thought for those of you who think that everything is going as planned: if SE intended for zero-downtime meleeburn dominance to happen, then why did they introduce BLU in the same expansion as imps and colibri? -- Pteryx

[Karinya]

Exp, balance, fun, and other eternal issues

You were all impressed by it and now you say it takes no skill.

melee burn is all about the gear

I agree that melee burn (both exp and hnm) is all about the gear. Gear is not skill. Thanks for playing.

Especially when you get that gear by having the best claimbot on the server (ridill, adaberk, d-ring etc.), buying gil (some relics), or other illegitimate means (ls's with a distribution system that amounts to a pyramid scheme; some relics in this category too).

Time is also not skill. Beating Proto-Omega once is just as hard as beating him 100 times (in fact, the first kill is the hardest because you don't have any of the drops or as much experience with the fight), but it won't equip your linkshell nearly as well for the next mob to come along. The same applies to all other mobs and content.

There's really no reason not to make HNM drops 100% (or even give every member a ticket for the reward of their choice, the way avatar fights work already) - a group who beats DL repeatedly isn't any more worthy than someone who beats him once, they just have more time to throw at the problem. Making Shadow Mantle a random drop makes *exactly* as much sense as making Fenrir summon a random drop. So why did SE do one and not the other?

Making uber-gear scarce doesn't reduce the balance problems introduced by its existence; it worsens them. By opening up gaps between different players and groups of players, it makes it difficult or impossible to balance content for all of them. If everyone had Ridill, endgame content would be designed around it, and people who had a bunch of them wouldn't tp burn mobs that are supposed to be HNMs. On the other hand, if you design content for gear that lots of people *don't* have, then you potentially stick some people with not having good enough gear to do the fights that get better gear.

The fact people forget about is that not everyone wants to get less exp an hour for a more "standard" or for some of you "fun" type of parties.

Why should those types of parties make less exp per hour than a meleeburn? And why should the differences be so huge?

Why shouldn't SE adjust the exp system so that *different kinds of parties* can make *similar* exp/hr? Even if they don't get it exactly identical for every party setup (and even if some setups deserve to fail - although I would include setups with no tank or hate control and few defensive jobs in the "deserve to fail" category, myself, so maybe this principle should be applied sparingly), there's tremendous room for improvement.

Every job should be part of at least some party setups that get a desirable rate of exp/hr in a camp appropriate to that party setup (compared to what else is possible for that level; of course the appropriate camps need not be the same, and ideally shouldn't be, to alleviate congestion). As many party setups as possible should make similar and competitive rates of exp/hr in the camps appropriate to each of them. Those are my goals for the exp system, and the current system is a very long way from them. I've suggested nerfing the upward outliers simply because it's simpler and less likely to get screwed up than trying to buff everything *except* meleeburns. SE could introduce even godlier exp rings at the same time and give everyone more total exp/hr, or reduce exp requirements again and knock merits down to 5k limit points so you actually did more to advance your character even with less exp/hr - it wouldn't matter, as long as different party setups were closer together, I'd be happier with it. You getting good exp doesn't *have* to be defined in reference to other jobs (or people without as much gear to throw at the problem) getting crappy exp.

I admit, I played the world's tiniest violin for BLMs for a while, considering that of their former HNM, BCNM and exp dominance, they have really only lost the latter (except in hnmls's that are insanely overgeared for the fight they are doing, and even then it depends on the fight). But it's gone too far - they're not just not gods anymore, they're actively shunned, and no job deserves that. Not even the ones who exploited BCNM imbalances to rip off 50% of the profits of other players' hard-earned kindred seals.

Fun, not everyone has the same idea of fun. Some people are going to disagree with you on what they find fun. I find getting the most exp/hr fun compared to wasting my time with 10k/hr.

If you agree that "not everyone has the same idea of fun", then why should the best exp/hr rates be reserved for a very narrow range of party setups that many jobs are just not welcome in, and others perform poorly at best?

Exp is a special case because you not only can't buy and sell it, you can't even transfer it from job to job on the same character. So every job *has* to be able to make its own, and their relative effectiveness at doing so is *always* important.

[Vyuru]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I'm talking about BLATANT HYPOCRISY in design and execution. Either burns are bad or burns are good. I'm talking about what was unfair. The nerf itself was a slap in the face, ToA added insult to injury by letting others enjoy what RNG was punished for.

So far Rng is the only non mage job that I have ever seen allowed into a Kirin fight in the lvl 60-65 range.

That I call broken.

Well, I should say was since that ended after the great arrow nerf.

Also you are forgetting that unless the party setup was at least 2x Rng then it was starting to get impossible to get a exp party setup.

And then there was the fact that what, roughly 1/4rd of the entire level range of people LFG were all rangers, out of how many jobs?

TP burns weren't, and aren't, bad. It was the fact that ranged attacks/accuracy did not scale well for higher level mobs, and that almost everyone and their mother were leveling ranger to the exclusion of other jobs, that resulted in the nerf to ranger.

Asking a TANK to DD is as awkward asking a BLM to main heal.

It's not really that awkward when you consider that a number of Pld are going the DD tank route.

And main healing is something that Blm should expect to be asked to do. Should it be their role for all of FFXI to main heal? No. But it is no great travesty to ask a Blm to main heal either.

[Sevv]

Re: Everyone bitching about the same damn things again

Ok I'm finally responding to this thread again.

Endgame Issues:

When I say endgame isn't difficult that is because as a whole it isn't anything really challenging for the players who have been doing this for a few years. The first time you kill anything as a linkshell it is a major accomplishment in the vacuum that is your linkshell. When you look at the entire community of players, most of the linkshells in the game have 70+ kills on the newest mobs they have introduced into the game, we already have our strategies down and know exactly what to expect.

Endgame accomplishments for the community come in two forms. The first is anytime Square-Enix adds a new, HNM to the game the first few kills are accomplishments (as in kills server wide). We don't know what to expect at all or if it resists, two hours etc. Once it has been killed a hand full of times server wide, we have an starting point to prefect our strategy. The only other community wide endgame accomplishment will be cracking AV. The fact comes to 5 year content is 5 years old, if you have been around the game you, know what to watch out for on any of the giving mobs.

Tp burning in endgame, ok there is serious things you are forgetting about TP burns in endgame. First off the first time most people saw a tp burn kirin on this website, 90% of you shit your pants. You were all impressed by it and now you say it takes no skill. Granted while it is not the most "skilled" way to kill anything as you all say, it takes alot of time and effort to get the needed items in order to tp burn some of the bigger mobs in this game. Manaburning mobs just really takes a shit load of black mages, where as melee burn is all about the gear which a majority is r/e which means you have to kill your Fafnirs, Nidhoggs, Omegas, etc etc. to even be able to go back and burn a mob you already killed.

Most of the people here bitching about endgame don't even do much more then dynamis, limbus, sky, and maybe sea. You are using an outside opinion because you think it is fair that other people are getting the gear you dream about and you feel they are weaker players. It is fine for you to want to kill things other ways, but please until you tp burn bigger mobs and have killed everything but AV try to not pass your judgement on things you lack the first hand knowledge about.



The Past Nerfs

Ranger felt the nerf, yes they burned very similar to how we burn now. They targeted mobs that zerked or that were VT's, that was never the problem. They were able to put out near similar numbers on gods, etc.

Black Mages, wait was there an actually nerf?


Merit Burn Parties

Burn parties are and will be popular because they have the best Exp:Time ratio in the game. It allows people to not have to spend two to three times the time meriting or exping. Sorry but no matter what the set up Exp/Meriting was never introduced to be the best part of this game. Yes some jobs function better in merit parties then others, but in reality there will never be equality for all jobs in FFXI.

Many of you say you want to not burn in exp. That is fine simple way to fix this {Burn} {Party} {No, Thanks}, but then you will bitch about not getting as many invites. Well you can always make your own parties as well! The fact people forget about is that not everyone wants to get less exp an hour for a more "standard" or for some of you "fun" type of parties. Just because some of you find this better, does not mean the entire community does. People get very selfish and bitch because their views are not the number one view in this game, and they feel that S-E should nerf the game so their way will be the best or most popular. I am sure there are plenty of people who want, to exp the same way you do. You have to meet these people and form a mini-perma, and you will never have exp problems again. When I do buffer on my Paladin, I make sure I grab people who have trouble getting parties and usually grab 72-75 DD's to help them get 75, because that is how I like to exp, when I do merits you will not cetch me outside a burn party.

White Mage vs Red Mage in merits, it all depends on who is playing each.

Assaults

These are not hard. Seriously, nothing is difficult here. Some of them are more of a pain in the ass more then anything but you plan for it and you will be all set. The caps, were designed as again an option not as a must use route thru assaults. If people want to do them capped, then they can but don't expect most people to cap themselves if they are already 75, most newer players try to get 75 before getting thru the majority of extra content. They are nice if your helping out a lower level friend, but again they are not the best way to do them.

Other bitchy shit people posted

• To do almost anything in this game: Mages, Tanks, and DD's are needed they all have their places. People bitch that Paladin and Black Mage get no ToAU loving. Personally fighting vts on Pld made for less deaths and faster exp, I also made the effort to put together a Burn set up and have had little to no problems. Black Mages got alot of burnable and soloable mobs in ToAU and can pull some serious exp/hr out there.
• Rangers being punished by ToAU, Hi guys this is the game calling, the majority of the merit mobs are weak to peircing and flying, please learn to make those arrow burns again and watch how much exp/hr you get.
• Feeling that Pld, Nin, Rng, Blm have new issues, again all of these jobs can easily burn in ToAU. Please learn to make parties to maximize your job's exp potential and then come back after you break 20k/hr. Bst is the same except the lost the exp penalty, it is the curse of the soloable jobs.
• Fun, not everyone has the same idea of fun. Some people are going to disagree with you on what they find fun. I find getting the most exp/hr fun compared to wasting my time with 10k/hr.
• Don't know about you guys, but Sch is pretty hacks in leveling up.