Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

[Akashimo]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Not only are you (BBQ) wasting your time leveling on harder mobs, but your wasting 5 other people's times as well.

If it was wasting 5 other people's time they wouldn't have stayed 5 minutes.

People who take the harder challenges are the ones who actually enjoy the game. People like Sevv I bet wouldn't pay another cent if ToAU suddenly gotten taken out of and can't get lolSanction meripo.

[Omniblast]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Toau camps are better bbq didn't see it because really i didnt read your full post.

30k vs 15k which is better.

Not only are you (BBQ) wasting your time leveling on harder mobs, but your wasting 5 other people's times as well.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I have to partially disagree with that statement. You should know that it took almost no time for the current ToAU meripo/XP system to develop. People gravitated toward it within weeks of its release. The reason people don't go to the places your suggesting is not lack of knowledge. It's a combination of inaccessibility and the prospect of lower XP/hr without the Sanction bonus.

They gravitated toward exploitable mobs SE is too scared to fix. Now it is well past the point SE could have fixed them because, when suggested SE fix them, numerous players said they would quit the game over such a change.

As far as knowledge is concerned, there is no information on these areas because no one is putting it up. FFXI-Atlas isn't updated. People want research and camp sites before they go. If you want to go there so bad and it's as awesome as you predict, either post some data or stop complaining and wait.

Have you been living under a rock? Its been posted days since the zones were added.

They're beastmen fortresses in the past.

What's there to know aside from the fact they added in gnoles, imps, gnats, puddings and peistes into the existing layout? You have the maps, the door codes on Castle O are the same as before, the affictors and mutes in Beadeux are gone and La Vaule actually looks like it was once inhabited and bridges are up instead of torn down like they are in present day Davoi.

The NMs in these zones are listed, shit, a decent portion of BLMs and SCHs are now running around with Vicious Mufflers for a reason.

Nastiest mobs are VT, complete with the newer WotG beastmen TP moves. You can make 15k just roaming inward and 15k back out in most of these places. Castle O is probably the most lucrative spot for PTs since it also has the gnat pellet NM pop drops.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Toau camps are better bbq didn't see it because really i didnt read your full post.

30k vs 15k which is better.

[Sabaron]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

...They're not picking ToA camps because they're better, they're pick them because, generally, its all they know...

I have to partially disagree with that statement. You should know that it took almost no time for the current ToAU meripo/XP system to develop. People gravitated toward it within weeks of its release. The reason people don't go to the places your suggesting is not lack of knowledge. It's a combination of inaccessibility and the prospect of lower XP/hr without the Sanction bonus.

As far as knowledge is concerned, there is no information on these areas because no one is putting it up. FFXI-Atlas isn't updated. People want research and camp sites before they go. If you want to go there so bad and it's as awesome as you predict, either post some data or stop complaining and wait.

So far, I've found the Gustaberg Worms my favorite camp. I went with a group to do two different camps. One in Grauberg and one in Sauromugue Champaign [S]. Neither was successful.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Because some of us actually cap our EXP and consider it fun. Fighting something that is actually a threat instead of it just being a grind is fun to me.

I have expd off yags alot since they came out for some fun, but Id rather not spend 5 times the time getting everything merited

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

There's just one slight problem there though - beastmen are REAL monsters. They can take a beating, and worse, they can hit back. The typical colibri abusing party won't have an easy time beating them at all, let alone with anything like the same kill speed. Even comparing the classic beastmen to the Empire beastmen... all 3 classic beastmen races are stronger than mamool ja. A lot stronger. And when you do kill them, you get less exp, because sigil doesn't have the exp bonus of sanction.

Have you actually been to the fortresses. The worst you see in these fortresses are VT. They're only marginally stronger. Mamool Ja in MJSP are higher level, A VT Yagado will give you just as much of a fuss as your Lurker or Infiltrator.

SE clearly put some effort into making signet, sanction and sigil different, and they *are* different. But they're not equal.
Signet: free (no-TP-loss) resting, bonus exp for 2-5 members, can use some conquest based items, bonus def/eva against EM or lower when engaged
Sanction: latent refresh or food extension, bonus exp regardless of number of members
Sigil: latent refresh and/or food extension, free resting

Sigil gives the bonus EXP for 2-5 members, too. Remember, SE wanted to encouraged the smaller PT trend, the buffs to Signet and Sigil are why those are there, in addition to signet increaseing evasion and accuracy when dealing with EM+ mobs solo.

Regen is omitted because it's too small to matter. Conquest/IS/AN balance each other out (sort of, assuming more ways to use AN are coming in future updates). Food extension doesn't affect your exp/hr, only slightly affects your gil cost. There aren't many signet dependent items and their effects are not large. Frontliners in high-level parties rarely rest at all, while backliners have no TP to lose, so free resting isn't a significant benefit in that context.

Retaining TP while resting was more of a solo/endgame benefit than it was an EXP benefit.

The underlying motive to part of this design - which players are generally too stupid/lazy/greedy (pick one) to pick up on - was to encourage playstyles and setups players constantly cry and cry and cry about not having, as well as move away from the mandatory 6/6 IT++/Burn PTs.

RDMs that melee, BLU/PLD/DRKs able to rest MP without TP loss and jobs basically expected to solo (BST/PUP/SMN/BLM) - these are people who were supposed to benefit from the changes to Signet and addition of Sigil.

In the end, it doesn't matter how convenient the camp is to reach if it's a worse camp because (1) Sanction is better than the alternatives and (2) the commonly-exped-on TAU mobs are weaker and quicker to die than other mob families. Fashion can have a lot to do with camp locations, but in this case the fashion is backed by cold hard facts, which SE will have to change because nobody else can. Exploiting imbalances (or if you prefer, seeking out the maximum obtainable efficiency - and when you're dealing with anything other than an *obvious* bug, the line is far from clear) is a player behavior, but having imbalances at all is SE's responsibility.

I think you're giving players too much credit. You're rationalizing, which is different from the leaders who throw together PTs and trying to cram themselves into Thickets Colibri or MJSP. Half of them these days don't know of the other camps and a sizable portion of them wouldn't know how or have the progress to get to sky/sea camps, much less have promys done to access Lufaise to start with. They don't know about Ro'Meave.

They're not picking ToA camps because they're better, they're pick them because, generally, its all they know.

why kill harder mobs for less exp an hour?

Because some of us actually cap our EXP and consider it fun. Fighting something that is actually a threat instead of it just being a grind is fun to me.

[Sevv]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

why kill harder mobs for less exp an hour?

[Aksannyi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

There's just one slight problem there though - beastmen are REAL monsters. They can take a beating, and worse, they can hit back. The typical colibri abusing party won't have an easy time beating them at all, let alone with anything like the same kill speed. Even comparing the classic beastmen to the Empire beastmen... all 3 classic beastmen races are stronger than mamool ja. A lot stronger.

To me, this is just more incentive to invite people like Paladins and White Mages. Remember those? And maybe even coordinate something like a skillchain.

Wait, skillchain? Who am I kidding?

Excuse the bitchy/sarcastic nature of my post, it's just kind of nice to see PLD and WHM get some xp love from time to time.

[Karinya]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Beastmen fortresses are viable merit camps in WotG, its just the same problem as always:

Players are too lazy to "walk" in a video game.

I mean, really, they gave us teleport spells that put you in spitting distance of these past fortresses, teleports to each zone they're in and probably chocobo access by next month and that still won't be enough.

People. Are. Lazy.

Well, I don't think that's the *whole* problem. If the camps were good, people would go there even if it did take 2 whole minutes. Heck, people used to go to Lufaise and Moongate. Those camps died, maybe partly because they were inconvenient, but mostly because they were *inferior*. Empire = more exp. So why leave?

Teleporting to the past right near the fortresses won't give you sigil, which you need if the camp's potential is going to be anywhere remotely comparable to sanction camps.

But suppose you have everyone retrace, get sigil and then use the cheap past teleports, and get to camp. Then you can start fighting beastmen.

There's just one slight problem there though - beastmen are REAL monsters. They can take a beating, and worse, they can hit back. The typical colibri abusing party won't have an easy time beating them at all, let alone with anything like the same kill speed. Even comparing the classic beastmen to the Empire beastmen... all 3 classic beastmen races are stronger than mamool ja. A lot stronger. And when you do kill them, you get less exp, because sigil doesn't have the exp bonus of sanction.


SE clearly put some effort into making signet, sanction and sigil different, and they *are* different. But they're not equal.
Signet: free (no-TP-loss) resting, bonus exp for 2-5 members, can use some conquest based items, bonus def/eva against EM or lower when engaged
Sanction: latent refresh or food extension, bonus exp regardless of number of members
Sigil: latent refresh and/or food extension, free resting

Regen is omitted because it's too small to matter. Conquest/IS/AN balance each other out (sort of, assuming more ways to use AN are coming in future updates). Food extension doesn't affect your exp/hr, only slightly affects your gil cost. There aren't many signet dependent items and their effects are not large. Frontliners in high-level parties rarely rest at all, while backliners have no TP to lose, so free resting isn't a significant benefit in that context.

So for a full party of high level expers, ignoring insignificant bonuses, you get:
Signet: nothing useful
Sanction: latent refresh and bonus exp
Sigil: latent refresh

It's not hard to see which of those is superior.


In the end, it doesn't matter how convenient the camp is to reach if it's a worse camp because (1) Sanction is better than the alternatives and (2) the commonly-exped-on TAU mobs are weaker and quicker to die than other mob families. Fashion can have a lot to do with camp locations, but in this case the fashion is backed by cold hard facts, which SE will have to change because nobody else can. Exploiting imbalances (or if you prefer, seeking out the maximum obtainable efficiency - and when you're dealing with anything other than an *obvious* bug, the line is far from clear) is a player behavior, but having imbalances at all is SE's responsibility.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Meh, on Hades it sometimes takes weeks to get the AC back, and this was both before and after the expansion came out, so losing it and not having it back right away doesn't mean dick as far as I'm concerned.

Not having Runic Portal access could actually work in your favor as far as meritting is concerned. I'm sure a lot of players will decide not to go to most ToAU merit camps without Runic Portals active. But the Nyzul Isle Colibri camp isn't that much harder to reach on foot than it is with Runic Portals.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

People. Are. Lazy.

BBQ wins the Vana'diel Awards for the statement.

Anyways, yeah, I still call people lazy and ungrateful on any ls i'm on or on vent when they bitch that the jps haven't gotten the candy back after 1 day.

I think we went for an entire week with out it only once. Best week ever ^_^

But yeah, I'd rather see more RoZ/CoP/WotG parties with any of the coming updates ;x

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

I'm looking at WotG areas as something of a novelty that will end up as quest/mission/farming zones like CoP zones. Aht Urghan was definitely designed to be more of a high-end XP zone set. Still, it would be nice to get some cool party XP zones for people who don't generally get invited to meripos.

Beastmen fortresses are viable merit camps in WotG, its just the same problem as always:

Players are too lazy to "walk" in a video game.

I mean, really, they gave us teleport spells that put you in spitting distance of these past fortresses, teleports to each zone they're in and probably chocobo access by next month and that still won't be enough.

People. Are. Lazy.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

There are times it's gone for weeks, and times it's back before I even know it was taken, lol. Depends when the JPs decide to do it, the NA hardly ever do.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Meh, on Hades it sometimes takes weeks to get the AC back, and this was both before and after the expansion came out, so losing it and not having it back right away doesn't mean dick as far as I'm concerned.

I haven't seen it gone for longer than a few days tbh. Last week it was gone for 5 days ish.