Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

[Callisto]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Emphasis on "good." There are a lot of LS leaders. There aren't a lot of good LS leaders.

That's a huge point right there. I consider myself a 'good' leader as I try to get things nice and organized and lead the troops to victory in the best way possible. I show up to every event despite the fact that 90% of what we do has absolutely no shot at benefitting me. Our shellholder and officers are very transparent about what's going on in the LS and exactly where LS funds are going. I'm sure that several in my LS won't consider me a 'good' leader because I sometimes force them to come to events on jobs they may not want and bump them on items they're in line for should they intentionally choose to XP or farm instead of coming to scheduled events, and I consistently call people out in front of others for doing stupid shit that is detrimental to the LS.

At the same time, a notorious LS leader formerly on Ramuh ran a shell over a year while the entire time refusing to ever disclose the contents of the LS bank, very obviously used LS bank funds as their personal gil, had an extremely arbitrary point system that distributed most drops to their 'pet' members, got themselves an Aegis and half a GHorn, then broke the shell and jumped servers when they couldn't get into another LS. Despite all this, they could be considered a 'good' leader, as they led people to win the big fights and many of their members got the drops they wanted.

[Murphie]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

See, that's what is wrong, though.

You mean, that's what you personally feel is wrong. What is right for you isn't right for everyone, and not every LS is going to work the same. Heck, not every group of friends is going to work the same. We can make personal judgements about the relative validity of these systems, but there is no one right answer.

Endgame LSes being about this "teamwork" thing, they should be making damn well sure jobs like PLD, THF, WHM, SMN and such are getting a nice buffer and merits if they're REALLY interested in keeping people around. When I was a sackholder on my LS on Titan, I made it my business as a leader to see those needs were met.

Which is great. And it's a system that I prefer. But not everyone feels the same way. Unfortunate? Yes. But no less true.

Good leaders look out for the needs of thier members, period. But then, this is exactly why I have so much trouble in finding enjoyment in endgame - few share that concept.

Emphasis on "good." There are a lot of LS leaders. There aren't a lot of good LS leaders. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. And I don't see much point in arguing about the way the community should be. I can only affect my own behavior, and possibly, the behavior of those I interact with.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

If you want the flexibility of putting up your party flag and joining a group of random players, then you need to be willing to compromise.

That's not a compromise. A compromise involves concessions from all sides. You're just asking for conformity with an established (and controversial, or we wouldn't be discussing it here) norm.

The fact that it is theoretically possible to still perform roles in xp that were once common does not mean that all is well with the game. I don't think SE ever intended or envisioned that we would be looking at this stark a trade-off between time-efficiency and strategic diversity (in fact, time-efficiency looks like it was meant to be pretty scarce in this game from the beginning, and that scarcity is why it's hard to ever take any of it back once given without incurring backlash; the very experience of relative plenty shifts people's tolerance levels). The somewhat meager nature of the benefits given out for other methods, in particular small parties, suggests to me that 1) they are afraid of large changes shifting the game dynamic in unpredictable ways, and 2) they still haven't fully come to terms with just how badly they skewed the time-efficiency equation when it comes to xp/merit.

Also, finding 5 like-minded people and then forming a static with them is unrealistic. Especially in xp rather than merit, merit at least you don't have to worry about levels. I'd say you'd need about 10 like-minded people to have a decent shot at a proper job role layout, and more like 25 to have a decent shot at finding compatible schedules. A better option would be some sort of parallel lfg/search system. Yes, comments are there and a few of us try to use them, but so much as having your flag up says to most people "I'm up for anything you have to offer as long as it's in Aht Urghan and doesn't have any downtime" regardless of any comments you might have set. And comments can't be switched off easily enough to be trusted on their own.

That said, perhaps I should start searching for xp seacoms before lfg people when I build parties, just in case. Establishing a cultural norm surrounding seacom might be more effective than petitioning for a new search method...

And once I finish my equipment database project (still in data entry, 1600 pieces entered so far) I would like to at least try my hand at designing an off-line party-management system of some sort...

As far as my own take on time-efficiency of meleeburn... I don't like it when I spend a whole day leveling and get half as much xp as the last time I did, true. I had a particularly sucky Bibiki Bay party once that got less than 2k/hr and I couldn't help but resent the fact that we'd been dragged out there when Mt. Zhayolm was available, we weren't built right for the targets in question (we were frankly overhunting), and the exact same lackluster party could have been getting at least an extra 1k/hr if not more just by changing to the popular AU camp of the level range. On the whole, though... burn-style burns me out rather badly. The xp grind is mildly fun on an interesting job in a setup that requires strategy. It's just kinda boring and tedious in some of the worse trad-party scenarios. It's both soul-crushingly tedious and exhausting in a no-downtime, have-a-mob-waiting-for-you-by-the-time-the-last-one-dies party. And I haven't even been in true meleeburn yet, just burn-style parties with token tanks that may or may not hold hate for any length of time (their role is to keep the mob from running off toward the healer(s) until the heavy-DDs rip hate off them, more than to actually keep hate altogether). Frankly, I'd rather spend 3-4 hours in a party that gets me 3-4k/hr than spend an hour in a party that gets 10k/hr and then be too burned out to do anything else productive the rest of the night.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

LS party does not always mean "friends party." I mean, ideally it would, but seriously. LS members want to maximize their time as well, you know.

See, that's what is wrong, though.

Endgame LSes being about this "teamwork" thing, they should be making damn well sure jobs like PLD, THF, WHM, SMN and such are getting a nice buffer and merits if they're REALLY interested in keeping people around. When I was a sackholder on my LS on Titan, I made it my business as a leader to see those needs were met.

I mean, sure, they could go campaign, but that's not getting people buffers as quickly as they'd like. SCH and COR are my mains, its not like I'm starving for an invite here, so were I a leader, I'd suck it up and help, I'd set an example for the rest of the LS.

Most endgame shell holders and sacks have no concept of team morale. They just care about thier bottom line. Prime example would be the treatment of BRDs or THFs - they're treated like tools. BRD is harassed for merit, THF is called out to make every insipid little thing drop.

Then you have jobs that had to crawl to 75 solo because the community deems them unworthy of a PT invite. As a direct effect of that, just who do you think is most capable of sponsoring those nice KS99s that benefit the LS?

Oh, I'd say BST, PUP and BLM for the most part. I mean, I don't mind soloing myself, but when I do, i tend to have 40 KS per week to show for it. I end up with more seals than I personally know what to do with. Little respect for putting up those seals, thanks. You won't get them as quickly splitting them 6 ways in meritpo.

Good leaders look out for the needs of thier members, period. But then, this is exactly why I have so much trouble in finding enjoyment in endgame - few share that concept.

I always looked out for my PLDs and BLMs particularly and we had good chemistry from them in the LS partially due to that. You scratch your members backs and they'll show up for your needs and be a stronger team member. Treat them like a wageslave and that's exactly how they will act and, in time, they will leave.

So many times I get the "endgame is about teamwork" line fed to me, only to see its a facade put on by leaders who never take interest or much care for the people they're leading.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

So long as you understand that they'll be able to use it on you as well. And no offense, Aka, but you'd be eating a lot of EG if that were the case.

That would be fun, like seeing 2 blms racing to d2 the other.

LS party does not always mean "friends party." I mean, ideally it would, but seriously. LS members want to maximize their time as well, you know.

Yeah ;_;

[Murphie]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Better search function and ability to Everyone's Grudge party members.

So long as you understand that they'll be able to use it on you as well. And no offense, Aka, but you'd be eating a lot of EG if that were the case.

And LS parties don't always work either <_< Majority of the people from my dyna and endgame shells want 30k/hr >_>
Even when I offer to people who need the buffer on the less popular jobs.

LS party does not always mean "friends party." I mean, ideally it would, but seriously. LS members want to maximize their time as well, you know.

[Akashimo]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

If you want the flexibility of putting up your party flag and joining a group of random players, then you need to be willing to compromise.

Better search function and ability to Everyone's Grudge party members.

And LS parties don't always work either <_< Majority of the people from my dyna and endgame shells want 30k/hr >_>
Even when I offer to people who need the buffer on the less popular jobs.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Except that we have a far harder time having our fun because the majority of DDers and refreshers loudly demand meleeburn and nothing but.

Either A) You need new friends, or B) You need to realize your preferences and priorities are different from the vast majority of other players, and you need to compromise on your preferences if you want to play in a party.

Others who share our views have completely given up seeking at all, lest we get roped into a meleeburn and chastised/stared at for complaining. We can't have our trad-party fun if we can't make trad-parties in the first place. That's why we want camp balance. -- Pteryx

If you find 5 other players who want trad-party, then you can set up a static and don't have to worry about seeking in the first place. Setting up a static like that would take work. You'd have to figure out not only a time when everyone can meet, but then you have to make sure that the jobs people bring will mesh well together. But that's the price you have to pay.

If you want the flexibility of putting up your party flag and joining a group of random players, then you need to be willing to compromise.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Most times I've actually gone to other camps is when the AC is gone. Most people don't want to ride the ferry to Nashmau because it's a fucking long ride, only to find that the Mire is still overcrowded. ><

I do remember one time we all used the RP to get to the Mire, found there was no room for us, and decided to just go to Bibiki Bay because we had a WHM and a RDM and the party setup would allow it easily. This was last year, before I was 75. I used my first Anniversary Ring about 4 times in that camp, and I was happy as hell that I got to enfeeble mobs.

[Murphie]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

That's the kind of attitude I can appreciate, Callisto.

Seriously though, you're right. Anything that takes several hours to accomplish is going to be a serious endeavor for the people involved. When I join a merit party with strangers, I want the most EXP possible in the shortest amount of time. If I'm doing something with friends, I don't care how much exp I get, so long as I have fun doing whatever it is that we're doing. If someone invited me to a meripo and said "Hey, let's go to [X Area] to EXP on [Mob that gives less EXP/Hour]," I'd base my response on what kind of people were in the party. I wouldn't turn them down outright, but if I couldn't imagine hanging out with these people and getting to know them a bit, then I wouldn't waste my (or their) time.

[Callisto]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

The only challenge I know of that endgame has is having to put up with the bullshit politics that take this game and turn it into a job.

I agree that the game should be more fun and that endgame drama distorts things greatly, but honestly anything that takes more than 4-6 hours of your time per day and isn't sleep is sirius bisness to the people who partake in it.

I just want to do endgame for, you know, fun and teamwork.

Foreign concept, I know, but I still have yet to find an LS that truly subscribes to that concept.

We do in my LS, I have fun breaking pearls of people that don't do what I want, and we use teamwork to decide who to boot next.
______________________________

Those are what are normally burned that I have killed (here is the tricky part for you) not burning. I have killed near every mob in the game aside from DL without a burn (unless you count not using 2hrs as not burning). The only mob that is in this game I haven't killed is AV, period.

Show me Taisai title and Rain hat or gtfo!

[Jonastb]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Foreign concept, I know, but I still have yet to find an LS that truly subscribes to that concept.

DeNovo LS on Pandemonium. We do Sky only so far, but it is really for fun. People do need drops, and we try and get what we can, but it is more for the fun of it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Guys I have a secret endgame isn't hard.

And here you said you had taken down some of the most challenging mobs in the game. So either there is some difficulty or there isn't.

Plz decide, kthx.

The only challenge I know of that endgame has is having to put up with the bullshit politics that take this game and turn it into a job. I find it difficult being around people with shit-eating grins, personally.

I just want to do endgame for, you know, fun and teamwork.

Foreign concept, I know, but I still have yet to find an LS that truly subscribes to that concept.

[Callisto]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

Except that we have a far harder time having our fun because the majority of DDers and refreshers loudly demand meleeburn and nothing but. Others who share our views have completely given up seeking at all, lest we get roped into a meleeburn and chastised/stared at for complaining. We can't have our trad-party fun if we can't make trad-parties in the first place. That's why we want camp balance. -- Pteryx

That's what LS parties are for. You can't expect a group of random pickups to take a hit in XP/hour for the nostalgia factor of a SC+MB party. If I'm with my friends we'll go wherever, sometimes we go to Sky or Sea to farm while XPing for less XP/hour, sometimes we go to WotG beastmen strongholds to be different, and sometimes we just want to epeen on squishy birds because I like seeing my COR put up 2k damage and getting 2 merits an hour.

If I were to just pick up random people though, I wouldn't expect them to take anything but the maximum XP/hour we could get though, because when you flag up to strangers you're doing it with one goal in mind, crank those limit points the hell out.

[Pteryx]

Re: Will Al Zahbi be Thrown to the Wolves?

You're still free to take your friends and go kill harder mobs for less exp in unexplored areas, so while you're having your fun, you can leave everyone else alone to have theirs.

Except that we have a far harder time having our fun because the majority of DDers and refreshers loudly demand meleeburn and nothing but. Others who share our views have completely given up seeking at all, lest we get roped into a meleeburn and chastised/stared at for complaining. We can't have our trad-party fun if we can't make trad-parties in the first place. That's why we want camp balance. -- Pteryx