Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

[Ziero]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

The other thing was to give the medicine market a major boost. While I doubt SE would do this, it would be great if they'd change potions to stack to 99 and create a new recipe for them to allow multiple potions per synth, or simply change the existing ones.
Of course, this would be a nightmare of programming for SE but I think it would be worth it in the end.

The reason Potions in this game could never stack and be used like in older games is that it would make needing a dedicated healer *completey* useless. People would just carry Hi pots and cure themselves with near limitless stocks. As is there *is* a stackable type of potion, the Potion-Drops, but after each use you're medicated for 5 minutes and can't use them again. This is to keep Whm and healers needed. For Chem to be a successful job, it needs to use items that no one else can use. Hence the 'nin tool' concept of having special items needed to cast certain actions (which can also be seen in the JAs Tomahawk and Agnon, as well as Ranged WS in a sense) would be the best way to go. It would also spare thier inventory concerns a bit more as they could use just one type of 'tool' to cover all of one certain type of action.

[DakAttack]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Why can't they combine current items into Chemist exclusive items? The only problem with it that is obvious to me is turning 12 normal potions into 99 exclusive job ability potions or some such.

Tools would really limit the job. You should be able to mix anything and everything possible to use in battle. I can see maybe parts of the equation being tools and the other parts normal every-day items to keep things interesting. Potion + Diluting Agent + Enhancing Agent = Battle Potion x4 or some such. A trait that enhances the use of potions to an extent where it's possible to main or off heal with them would be nice, and possibly a potion that further enhances the use of potions? Who knows...

/item "Red Bull" <me>

Wiiiiiiiiiings.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Tools would really limit the job. You should be able to mix anything and everything possible to use in battle. I can see maybe parts of the equation being tools and the other parts normal every-day items to keep things interesting. Potion + Diluting Agent + Enhancing Agent = Battle Potion x4 or some such. A trait that enhances the use of potions to an extent where it's possible to main or off heal with them would be nice, and possibly a potion that further enhances the use of potions? Who knows...

Tools wouldn't limit the job, if anything, it would make the job far more practical. The system already recognizes X tool being usable from your inventory for Y Spell. Its not a stretch for the system to take more than one tool type for a spell in ratio to what tool and Chemist's spell would require.

Let's say Healing Powder is used for a basic Potion spell. But for status cures, you needed Healing Powder + Sage herbs, the result of which would be a Remedy that could take care of different status effects. For a higher tier Potion spell, two Healing powders could be consumed.

And over time, as Chemist grew in level, they could get a "Medic" Trait that reduces the tool cost of such combinations.

[Malacite]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Maybe, but the idea is to be able to mix and match for whacky results like Rikku's Mighty Guard in FFX.


Also as opposed to temp, all chemist made items could simply be EX, perhaps some of them Rare as well so that you can't stockpile them, but can still prepare supplies in advance.

[Lmnop]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

I don't like the idea of another "Double Up" mechanic, just because of Corsair. Same with Overdose -- Bust. Also similar to "Overload" of PUPs'.
Ditto B- Gun. A normalized (aka non-gambling) Corsair isn't what we need.

Other than that, I like the concepts.

I don't think using actual normal items is key. I've always thought the best way would be like what BRP suggested -- Chemist only items that are synthed in 33s with one of the base ingredients being the normal item of similar function. Such as a potion being used to make potion vials.

The other option - the Ninja Tool option, could be very interesting. Imagine first that you have a cook book. Or rather, you obtain Formulas. A formula is basically a scroll to learn a Chemist spell. The formulas call for specific ingredients to make though, so there'll be say... 8 different base Chemist components. So 8 stacks of crap taking up your inventory. This sucks, but it's no worse than what NINs do. So when you go to "cast" one of your formula, instead of an MP cost being listed to the side, it'd be the number of what types of ingredients you'll be using. Such as "2 chlorophorm, 1 sterilized water." With the lower level abilities only pulling from 3-4 ingredient types and the higher ones incorporating seldom-used ones. This would make it so all their actions are by default, a "Mix." Though it takes the fun out of it I suppose.

A flawed concept all the same -- it'd mean that they'd go through their ingredients faster than NINs burn tools (since they're losing 2-5 at a time). W/out seriously lasting effects, it's flawed at best.

I guess I'd want BRP's layout, personally, but with only 3 generic tools used. Your Vial stack, a Capsule stack, a Syringe stack. And yes, they should get hefty poisons.

Anybody else ever notice the disparity between PC and NPC poisons? Our DoTs do 1/5th to 1/2 as much damage as theirs, yet they have 10 times as much HP as us. Gee, no wonder we'd rather worry about sleep.

And cash job limit = BAD IDEA. RMT up, happy man down. In fact, the biggest problem with creating a chemist job is making it so it's barely limited by funds. You do not want nub Chemists who say "sorry guyz, i only have 20 more cures. But I'm up for staying for another 2 levels." I quite like the idea Bbq had for drawing essences off opponents. It'd also be cool if they had means to transform many "crap" items into tools. I'm thinking insect wings, lizard eggs, puk wings, maybe even crystals.

[DakAttack]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Money is defiantely an issue, but it has been for a while with Ninjas and Rangers.

The whole idea of Chemist is to mix and create. Limiting them to certain tools does increase their practicality, but I believe the cost to the job itself is too high.

Maybe, similar to BBQ's idea, enemies drop additional items that are Chemist exclusive, or Chemists can derive certain ingrediants from their surroundings? It could be similar to the Scavange ability Rangers use, but rather collect bugs, herbs, and plants. These items can stack to 99 and would serve as tools or ingrediants. They could 'Cultivate' for a few seconds between pulls to keep their supplies stocked.

The idea is kind of warping now.

[Ziero]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Maybe, but the idea is to be able to mix and match for whacky results like Rikku's Mighty Guard in FFX.
Also as opposed to temp, all chemist made items could simply be EX, perhaps some of them Rare as well so that you can't stockpile them, but can still prepare supplies in advance.

That's simple, you have them mix items to make their own 'tools' without the use of normal crafting. Infact that's the basis of my version of the chemist job, which I reposted from this post, who uses both the 'Tool' based spell system, the ability to 'mix and match' stuff as well as a bonus use for nomal, pre-existing items.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

I think a Draw/Scavange Type of ability would be requisite to make it work, in fact, since ranged weapons could be practical for Chemist, subbing RNG would give them access to one means of gaining materials via Scavange, so that doesn't have to be redone per se.

Perhaps a Decompose ability - breaking down an item into alchemy tools rather than straight desynthesis - would also be of benefit. Or the Draw idea.

As for those concerned with cost, Ninja is by far less expensive in terms of consumables than RNG or COR could ever wish to be. Having twelve bags of Hojo tools takes quite a bit of time to go through. Plus Chemists would have a practical fallback in the mage subjob department to start with, ensuring there will be some savings one curative tools.

And I think access to curative tools would help a job like WHM gain ground in high level PTs. This would help break reliance on "refresher" job to a degree, especially so in instances where dispel just isn't needed at all.

I do agree that to offset to MP savings, you'd have to notch up the recast timers on Chemist "spells" a bit, but perhaps make the casting timers short just to keep it fair. Nothing too extreme to be detrimental a bad situation, though.

Opposed to any "medicated" status. Its easily the most obnoxious ailment outside of the trap status a fail coffer picking can inflict (raise weakness for up to an hour, fun). I think COR should really be the only job to suffer any sort of penalty for a fluke, though I guess watching a failed Mix backfire on the chemist could be fun.

[Malacite]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Well, ideally the "mix" command would use base elements as you say and mimic FMA... if only SE could get the rights to that sort of thing lol. I'm sure they could, but it wouldn't be worth the costs (unless they change it just enough which is again unlikely)


The Runic Portals are essentially just that. I mean come on; An arcane symbol that uses Alchemy to break down your base components and reassemble you at another location? Full Metal Alchemist to a tee.

[Feba]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

if only SE could get the rights to that sort of thing lol. I'm sure they could, but it wouldn't be worth the costs (unless they change it just enough which is again unlikely)

oh hi there guess who owns it.

Fullmetal Alchemist (鋼の錬金術師, Hagane no Renkinjutsushi?, lit. "Alchemist of Steel"), commonly abbreviated as FMA or Hagaren by fans, is a manga series created by Hiromu Arakawa and serialized in Enix's (now Square Enix) Monthly Shonen Gangan.

[Malacite]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

Since when did they own it o. O


I was under the impression that they only supported the anime/manga. Hello full on FMA styled job!

[Saren]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

I really like a lot of the ideas here and I am really hoping for chemist: little mad scientist type in the back lobbing phials and darts and bombs all round, sounds great.

I love a lot of legal fishs ideas, especially the overdose and the strong poison and what people have been saying about getting items in the field and from mob drops, decompose sounds very practical. I also think that Chemist should be at least a mostly magic free job, using magical items to gain magical effects yes, actual spellcasting, not so much. I definitely agree that Chemist's Achilles heel needs to be the cast/recast timers.

I always saw Chemist as being a balanced healer/DD with some buffs and debuffs. Extreemly weak phsically and very ranged attack/ammo/tools oriented with throwing as their main weapon skill (darts, phials etc) and a significant element of risk to at least some of their abilities. Chemists are experimenting, it only makes sense that sometimes their items won't work or will go wrong in some way.

I always pictured Chemists with offensive thrown bombs as a fairly big part of their job.

Bombs – primarily elemental damage but obviously not as damaging as equivalent level blm spells (don't want to out nuke blms espeically because Chemist would be more flexible and have better endurance) and probably with longer cast times. Extremely limited in elemental range at low levels because it’s going to be really easy to make a fire or earth based bomb but a lot harder to make a lightning or dark based bomb.

Bombs should always have a certain chance to blow up in your face during casting time, the chance should be dependent on skill and int so low level bombs were safe at high skill levels. If the bombs blow up in your face they should damage everything in a certain AoE including party members, the mob and unclaimed mobs.

Possibly some of the higher level bombs could have added status effects or be status effect only, especially the ones that are high level skill and will always be risky (flash bombs anyone? Plague bombs?)

[Lmnop]

Re: Proposed Builds Part 1: Chemist

This is just an off-the-wall idea but if you took the decompose idea, and made it so you could apply it to most stack-able "ingredient" typed items (such as sheep meat or pots of honey), it may be interesting to make it so you got traits based off of the decomposition. I.e. the fumes from decomposing them into tools give you temporary buffs. It would be something like Blue Mages equipping spells to get traits, and it would be a bit like the "Drink" command insofar as you're using items to buff yourself. It would just be different in this case because you wouldn't actually lose items doing this.

Thus, you could possibly even have say... a Dark Knight who subs chemist so that he can break down insect wings into ingredients, giving himself Accuracy Bonus or something. And then using the ingredients of last decomposition to give himself minor heals every minute or so to negate damage.

Not saying the idea's particularly balanced or that I would even like it, but it'd certainly be interesting.