Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

[Pawkeshup]

First of all, I am not trying to defend gilsellers!
They need to be removed from the game!
Please keep that in mind when reading my post!!!

I started considering this recently. Since gilsellers provide drops and consumables to us, they wind up with a lot of our gil. As these accounts get deleted, that gil is destroyed. Consider the history of that gil, where it came from, how long it took players to have as much as they do. As this "old money" gets ejected from the economy, what could be the long-term ramifications?

Opinions?

[eticket109]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

I think its pretty clear what happens when looking at the overall decline of the economy over the last 12 months. With less gil in circulation, any amount of gil is more valuable then it was before. Prices of pretty much everything have come down to reflect this. It's not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing.

[raidenn]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

I know that some of them provide a lot of the meds, food and ammunition that are crafted. This usually allows the price to go down to a level that even some crafters can feel the pinch. I guess this is a good thing in a way.
For gilsellers who monopolize NMs, that's where it all goes wrong.

[Jei]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

Yes they do provide drops, so legit players have less way to make their money because everything we do, the gilsellers will also be there to rival us.

Look at it this way.

At NM camp, there will be players who want the item. For sell, for use, who knows.

Everytime you camp a NM, you won't always have other legit players as your rival. People need to take a break and sleep. Take the Modivate earring NM for example. You'll have time when there's 10+ competitors, and you'll have time when htere's no one else but you.

Now, if Modivate earring for some reason can be sold (which it couldn't) you will no longer be possible for it to go uncamped anymore. 24 hours a day 7 days a week RMT will be there to rival you. And their need for the drop will never cease because they will always want the drop for sell. You got a permanent rival which will always be there to rival everyone not only yourself.

There's a reason the government IRL don't keep printing out unlimited amout of bank notes. You have no many of them, they become just a trash.

[Effedup]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

Gilseller's are the ones destabilizing the economy in the first place. Take for instance the prize given for the adventurer's coupon: it's what, 50 gil? Now, back when the game went live that was probably worth something. Now, it's nothing. It's worth nothing because with gilsellers comes inflation. People that buy gil normally don't think twice about dropping serious bank on an item, so an item that sat and rotted on the AH with a price of 10k now easily sells for twice that, then three times, etc. I mean, who cares? All you have to do is pay your 50 bucks online and get another million and continue the cycle. Now think about the person who doesn't buy gil. They need a new weapon and even the lowbie stuff is going for ridiculous prices on AH. So they go looking for those money mobs to kill, mobs that drop decent items that can be sold for a reasonable amount. Except for when they get there, there's 50 other people camping those mobs...20 of which are people like them that are just trying to make money so they can get the new gear they need (which is selling for 10 times its value on AH), the other 30 are gilsellers (like Jei said before me) that do nothing but camp NM's all day so they can get the drop before you and sell it, for a ridiculous amount of gil, so they can make their quota for the day and their 3 bucks an hour. They don't really play the game, because to them it's not a game...it's their job. So something that was really simple before is now a huge P.I.A.

On a side note, the first time I went to King Ranperre's Tomb (for the Bat Hunt mission) I entered the area where the spooks spawn and was hit with a wall of lag like you wouldn't believe, to the point where I almost couldn't play the game. The reason of course being there was like 300 other people there camping spooks to get the Traveler's Mantle, which at the time on Fairy was going for 150k. So even though I wasn't even competing with them for drops they were still a pain in the ass.

Anyways, flash forward and Square-Enix decides to get tough with Gilsellers and bans however many accounts they banned. Removes billions of gil from the economy. Now prices plummet, because those peeps that bought gil can't buy gil anymore, hence they have less money to spend on stuff, hence the price of the item drops on the AH so that it will actually sell. Now all the stuff you bought is worth half what you paid for it. Now all the stuff you sell nets you half what you sold it for before.

If the gilsellers hadn't inflated the economy so much in the first place then something that cost 10k 2 years ago would probably cost 10k today, cause that's what it's really worth. So even if they do provide items at AH that may be a bitch to go out and farm, at least be comforted by the fact that you're not paying 10 times what the items are worth in the first place. Fairy got hit hard by the deflation (Dark crystals pre-bannings per stack: 15-18k, post banning, 3-5k) but at least someone doesn't have to deplete their whole savings to buy a few stacks of crystals.

[Pawkeshup]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

If the gilsellers hadn't inflated the economy so much in the first place then something that cost 10k 2 years ago would probably cost 10k today, cause that's what it's really worth. So even if they do provide items at AH that may be a bitch to go out and farm, at least be comforted by the fact that you're not paying 10 times what the items are worth in the first place. Fairy got hit hard by the deflation (Dark crystals pre-bannings per stack: 15-18k, post banning, 3-5k) but at least someone doesn't have to deplete their whole savings to buy a few stacks of crystals.

I just quoted this because it really summarizes this post nicely.

Actually, it wasn't ALL the gilsellers. They played a big part of introducing currency using their exploits, but what I am referring to is the "old money" that the players accumulated throughout the game.

When the first person logged on, that adventurer's coupon was still worthless. 5 mobs and you have the same amount of gil. However, as the adventurer base grew, more money was created from mob drops, quests, etc.

I understand your perspective, hence why I will not defend the gilsellers. However, how ingrained are they? Consider this: If they are amassing more gil now by selling us crystals, food, armor and other basic "needs" of the game, they are acquiring the money we have introduced into the system as well as what we are receiving from other players. If after that, they are banned holding it, it removes even more gil from the system.

Following this logic, if they are a lynch pin to the economy, some of the grease in the wheels, when they go we could see a pretty harsh collapse. Prices have already hit the level of when I started playing on Ramuh. How much lower will they go? Will this discourage BCNM runners, KS Teams, and crafters to the point where those basic needs and luxuries will become even more rare?

What the gilsellers did with the fishbotting and the other exploits is being unravelled as we speak. How many threads go with it is my question.

[Freedan]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

Speaking as a new player, I find FFXI economy to be rather healthy. I never had any problems affording nessesities or even "luxuries".

I don't know, maybe I'm not seeing the adverse affects of mass banning gil banks since I wasn't here when the inflation was running unchecked.

Remember RMT is in it to make money, they'll do whatever it takes to have enough gil to sell. Look at the recent update, they were resorting to warp hacking Selbina Clay quest!

That *15k doesn't sound like much, but when you have **12 people doing the same thing that adds up to 180k. Now factor in the time it would take them to do the quest with warp hacks, scary isn't it?

They don't care about inflation, they don't care about the economy.



*only counting all 3k and 6k monuments, 27k if you complete all monuments.
** just a number I picked, could be higher or lower.

[forster]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

Its a double edged sword, yes the higher cost items such as the Vermy's, the Scorpion Harness are dropping to record lows on Fenrir, but the flipside is that when the RMT crafters are removed, the consumables like shihei, and other nin tools, cookies etc are rising in price because there are less people making them overall.

The removal of accounts of players who abuse the game can only be a good thing, we are only just getting some balance on the expensive items, but on the other side the consumables are rising, like a scale with weights moving from one side to the other.

[Aeolus]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

The economy was way cheaper than it is now before NA release, no one was "hurt" by it then. If everything goes down in price (like it is) then everyone is just as rich as before, except the people who kept their gil and now have like 100m+, pretty much buy w/e they want. Its not totally ballanced out yet as there are still RMT raping the food market so its gone down alot lower than some other thing but once all RMT are eventually banned and give up because they just arnt making the money $$ anymore the economy will balance out properly. Should be glad its not the super inflated market it was last year.

[Celeal]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

There are a lot of legit player who are crafters, farmers, gardeners, fishers, miners, etc... as RMT is banned, legit players will fill in. Without RMT, the FFXI world can continue just fine.

[Nazo]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

but the flipside is that when the RMT crafters are removed, the consumables like shihei, and other nin tools, cookies etc are rising in price because there are less people making them overall.

Really? I don't know about other consumables but on Remora Shihei have dropped from 20k a stack a couple of months ago to about 3k a stack now.

[Icemage]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

Assuming there were no gilsellers, players would fill the void simply because of supply and demand. You have half the population of FFXI wanting to use shihei these days; as a player who has the capability of synthesizing shihei at will with no outside help (I can literally acquire the necessary materails quickly through fishing and vendors, aside from crystals - which are very plentiful), it makes no sense for me to compete with gilsellers in the shihei market because my return on investment is too low to justify the tedium.

If the gilsellers were gone, the demand would still be there, but there would be more people like myself who could step in and fill that void. Prices would come up on these consumable items, more likely than not, but it would be an actual reflection of demand, rather than a reflection of the line of profitability.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

All are good an valid points, but think, how much will it take to remove them? Eventually we could dwindle their numbers down, but like others have said, long as people are willing to buy, they will always remain.

And with the major deflaction to prices and how people like to buy things cheaply, any rmt that controls the market that holds the low prices will win in the long run. At the same time, win with inflaction. Over all, some times it might just be best to go Laissez-faire with the situtation as a player base and let SE handle it.

Humans can adapt amazingly to change, and in this, able to make a living for consumables and gear shows how well you can. Sad to say, so far RMT has a higher drive to do this for the all mighty dollar.

[Vyuru]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

but on Remora Shihei have dropped from 20k a stack a couple of months ago to about 3k a stack now.

And I'd point out, how many legit crafters would sell their stack of shihei that low?

As this "old money" gets ejected from the economy, what could be the long-term ramifications?

Opinions?

In general, I'd like to think prices would go up and crafting would be profitable again.

Take for example Wool Thread. It costs, 16,320 per stack at the cheapest to make. Or you could farm up sheepskins, at 2 skins/sheep wool, and even with stealing sheepwool if you're lucky enough, this should take at least an hour even with TH from my experiance. Currently stacks of Wool Thread are selling for about 14,000 gil, that is a 2k LOSS, not counting AH tax.

I like to think the average player isn't that dumb, and I'd prefer to blame the gil sellers myself. But that is just one of many examples of synthed recipes.

[Malevolent]

Re: Could banning Gilsellers actually damage our economy?

The only thing i could see helping legit players to keep up with RMT is making mission and quest gil rewards bigger. instead of yeiding 10gil for a quest make it 1k. Make any quest that puts out 5k or less repeatable. Maybe make the gil reward from the avatar fights a lil more.

The only reason i say this is becasue-

Farming has gotten to be tiresome

crafting can be a chore and drain you're gil. (sometimes when your items don't sell, I've had to start selling to NPCs becasue my items won't sell)

HELM you're constanly competing with botters.

besides banning RMT and suspected RMT i dunno what else SE can do. But take a look at it this way. What has the government do when inflation or the cost of living gets high? In MN the raised min wage.

Maybe SE should do this...