Making the game appetizing for new players

[Mynxi]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Been playing for maybe 2 weeks, and not sure if I'll actually continue after the free trial.
I started with a mate, who after 2-3 days decided it wasn't for him. This mainly came by the big XP issue. Would hang around grinding forever, just to get a level.
Now if we were doing this in a group, it'd move along slower, which kind of sucked concidering the duo'ing between the two of us would work out the issue of getting bored.
The next snag I personally ran into was finding a party after the point where it become very inefficient to solo.

Now, I did come from WoW, so I am used to things moving a little more quickly, but thats not saying I don't like FF XI because its not WoW. (I actually have a large distaste for WoW :p)
If there was a way to move things along so it didn't really have 'slow' points, that'd be great. EXP through quests just to give you a lil bump, and a reason to do them wouldn't go astray.
Maybe some way of highlighting who actually gives quests? Im not personally a fan of running around talking to every Tom Dick and Harry to find out who has a quest. Looking on a database site is a pain since alt-tabbing is disabled. (Whether its looking for quest info, or just finding out where the next weapon upgrade comes from)

More money from the Adventure coupon would be nice. I recreated my toon and realised that I had to run through the town, looking for someone to give me a quests, so I can get a bit more cash to get something better then an Onion Sword...

Sorry if it sounds like a whinge, but if someone is turned off by the game after 2-3 days, somethings not right.

All in all, I like FF XI, its just a few things that make it really hard to stay into. My friend passing up on it doesn't help either :\

Eh, just an opinion from a 'new' player, do with it what you will.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Were to add anything, it would be an old FF device we really haven't seen in FFXI, which would be a Libra or Scan ability. A low level player would have access to this ability so they could learn about mob weapon and elemental weakness, but upon hitting level 30, they no longer possess this ability. By that level, you should have seen a fair number of mob families and be able to make educated guesses on others from there.

I wouldn't make travel easier, wouldn't make getting EXP easier, wouldn't remove the EXP penalty on death, either. These are all issues that can be resolved by people just playing more intelligently.

Its just too bad its usually experienced players that refuse to do the basic things like setting HP in the dunes or bringing oils and powders to make things easier on everyone.

Really, if you know you gotta camp KB in an hour, don't f'n seek EXP PTs at any level, especially the lower ones. Rather than waste anyones time, go do something else before you have to camp. If you're in the dunes to EXP a sub or new jobs seriously, set HP in the dunes. If you need to be in Jeuno at a moment's notice, you don't need to be EXPing low level jobs at all. This should be common sense, but apparently, it still isn't.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is no patch for outright stupidity.

SE can make job adjustments to accomodate player laziness, but they can't fix something more vast than the universe itself. If they could fix it, then damn, they could fix our electoral process, too.

And just in response to the poster above me, we have lots of alternative ways to gain XP that are either escort quests or things like ENMs Besieged and Ballista.

The players simply don't do them. You can patch some of the laziness with job adjustments, but people who lack initiative simply lack initiative.

I've played MMOs that give EXP for doing quests. I've never seen the point to it as many of these quests required no skill whatsoever and the EXP grind was infinately more steep than the rather steep EXP curve FFXI used to have.

And if the person playing FFXI - or any MMORPG for that matter - gives up in three days, that's not a flaw in the MMORPG, that just means MMORPGs aren't for you.

You can't hope to progress as quickly in an MMORPG as you can an offline game - they're just not built that way and you can't learn everything a handful of play sessions.

[Emurei]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I understand the fustration of the EXP lost in this game, I remember when I started out. I was a Lv6 monk getting to level 7 and DeLeveling a few times back and forth, all cause of the crawler's poison. After dying a few times, I decided to change my strat TP off of EPs first and when I have 100 or close to it, I go after the SOB. EXP lost may suck but it did teach me to think and plan out my attacks, and its something that I used to this day. EXP lost isn't an issue, its people that don't think before they act that is the problem now and days. Once you died enough you just laugh it off and it just doesn't bother you anymore.

As for quest EXP maybe, but a small amount. I don't think questing just to get to your next level is a good idea, your skills wouldn't be capped and thats like half your level there.

EXP for rank would be cool, but instead of just given, maybe in a form of one of those EXP scrolls that gives a random amount for x amount to y amount.

The biggest issue I think is getting used to depending on partie. Lets face it, in today's sociality its all about the individual, communites is the thing of the past, and the "I" can do it myself mentality regins supreme. Either consciously or subconsciously you doing it. I think its a tough adjustment for most people to make and many of them just can't cut it. A good example is one of my LS mate that solo a whole lot, and when we got into a static, ever time we get an add he would pull it off and run off somewhere with it and try to be the hero, and save the party and gets killed. And instead of having 6 people to deal with the problem we're down to 5. Finally we got him to trust the group since the BLM can sleep the damn thing. So I'm aginst making easy to solo your way to the cap. I'm a fan and absolutely love the party dependency on one another. They should make it easyier to find groups. Probably might have to start migrating and merging people from lesser populated servers together. There just isn't enough people those level ranges anymore.

[Icemage]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I don't think there's an easy answer to this. Make it easier to solo and now you've made it easier for people who don't know what they're doing to get to higher levels without learning the ropes.

That said, I don't think some sort of repeatable activity to gain mild amounts of XP (~1000/hour) would be out of line. Maybe some sort of mini-game or something. There's already some things that are like this, like escort quests and such, but they're generally not accessible until you're pretty high level (since even for the level capped ones, you need generally decent gear and/or other people to succeed).


Icemage

[dirtyclown]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Enhanced exp from 1-10. Anyone who's leveled White mage knows how much of a pain in the ass it is in the beginning. Empress band helps with this somewhat, but if we were able to get enhanced exp from levels 1-10 then it would help newbies get out of the starting zones and into the game a bit quicker. Something like a 25% bonus would be pretty nice, and would be great for newbies who don't have enough CP for an Empress band

[Aksannyi]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I don't think there's an easy answer to this. Make it easier to solo and now you've made it easier for people who don't know what they're doing to get to higher levels without learning the ropes.

That said, I don't think some sort of repeatable activity to gain mild amounts of XP (~1000/hour) would be out of line. Maybe some sort of mini-game or something. There's already some things that are like this, like escort quests and such, but they're generally not accessible until you're pretty high level (since even for the level capped ones, you need generally decent gear and/or other people to succeed).


Icemage

I know I've been trying to get a LS mate of mine who also needs the Sandy escort quest to help me out with it, as I know I definitely can not solo it just yet. I could try, but I don't think it would be a good idea ... that stupid Elvaan {Bio}tch aggros everything and I just can't handle all the links.

[Nazo]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

When I first started the game I had the mindset that I didn't want to play the game with a guide, I wanted to figure things out by myself or with the help of friends as much as possible. But FFXI just doesn't seem to be designed to be self-contained, without consulting external sources or having highly knowledgable friends so many things are off limits. The effects of food is just one example of a catalogue of frustrations for the new player. Some of the quest and mission descriptions are so vague as to make them impossible to solve under your own initiative unless you go out and talk to every npc and / or kill every mob endlessly until you get the right drop.
It's not about being lazy or lacking initiative; I think some people forget that FFXI is a game, something meant for entertainment. Any game that forces its players to research how to do even basic tasks is always going to lose new players to frustration.

[Mynxi]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Both my mate and myself have played multiple MMOs before hand, and I know how fast you level, and yes, it isn't as fast as something like D2, or something like a console RPG. I played AO for awhile, and despite the mass complexity and information overload, continued to play. (Graphics were just too dated... Im a sod for beauty )

Maybe XP from quests just means its something else to do to progress rather then grinding those rabbits for 2 hours? Grinding rabbits for 2 hours requires skill, whilst doing some quest giving XP wouldn't? Hell, make it so you have to kill 20 rabbits to get xxx XP, you're still doing a process which 'requires' skill. Killing Crawler for their Caculus(sp?) to trade in for 600g requires skill? I can see how they use it as a trade off for getting some decent cash which you just don't get from killing mobs (ex selling crystals), but would it be a problem to lower the cash reward and add a tad bit of XP? Or just have it give XP the first time round? If people can get by by selling recovered items on the AH, then why are quests even in the game?

Spending awhile to level I can deal with, its not really a big issue. My biggest gripe is probably doing this, then coming to the point where theres no one to group with (Another thing that turned my mate away). Maybe its a flaw in the game, maybe its a flaw in how the servers were set up, but its a pain none the less.

I got into FFXI knowing plenty of the basics, and what it involved. Limited players in the lower level range isn't something you read on the box, in a review, or on a website.
In the start its cool. You don't really have much competition for mobs, so you just go along you merry way, but when you need to depend on other people, they just don't seem to exist.

Probably doesn't quite go under making the game more appetizing, but I'm sure it'd leave a bad taste in the player's mouth after they fork out cash, and then get stuck before the game really gets started.

I don't think you can put a patch in to 'fix' this without changing the way the game is. A new server put up 3-6month ago, would probably be relatively low pop in comparisson to other servers, and all the new characters would end up there over time, having a higher pop of low-mid level players. Maybe merging servers would work, but it'd probably just double the numbers of each respective bracket, thus overcrowding end game? I don't know, but its something that would be just peachy if it was fixed.

Peace.

[little ninja]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Were to add anything, it would be an old FF device we really haven't seen in FFXI, which would be a Libra or Scan ability. A low level player would have access to this ability so they could learn about mob weapon and elemental weakness, but upon hitting level 30, they no longer possess this ability. By that level, you should have seen a fair number of mob families and be able to make educated guesses on others from there.
I wouldn't make travel easier, wouldn't make getting EXP easier, wouldn't remove the EXP penalty on death, either. These are all issues that can be resolved by people just playing more intelligently.
Its just too bad its usually experienced players that refuse to do the basic things like setting HP in the dunes or bringing oils and powders to make things easier on everyone.
Really, if you know you gotta camp KB in an hour, don't f'n seek EXP PTs at any level, especially the lower ones. Rather than waste anyones time, go do something else before you have to camp. If you're in the dunes to EXP a sub or new jobs seriously, set HP in the dunes. If you need to be in Jeuno at a moment's notice, you don't need to be EXPing low level jobs at all. This should be common sense, but apparently, it still isn't.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is no patch for outright stupidity.
SE can make job adjustments to accomodate player laziness, but they can't fix something more vast than the universe itself. If they could fix it, then damn, they could fix our electoral process, too.
And just in response to the poster above me, we have lots of alternative ways to gain XP that are either escort quests or things like ENMs Besieged and Ballista.
The players simply don't do them. You can patch some of the laziness with job adjustments, but people who lack initiative simply lack initiative.
I've played MMOs that give EXP for doing quests. I've never seen the point to it as many of these quests required no skill whatsoever and the EXP grind was infinately more steep than the rather steep EXP curve FFXI used to have.
And if the person playing FFXI - or any MMORPG for that matter - gives up in three days, that's not a flaw in the MMORPG, that just means MMORPGs aren't for you.
You can't hope to progress as quickly in an MMORPG as you can an offline game - they're just not built that way and you can't learn everything a handful of play sessions.

WoW talk about a load of FANBOI crap.. Ohh yes Thank you S.E for putting in Escort quests. Ohh wait a minute, that would involve going to a zone you stop getting aggro at 70, fighting mobs you can barely take, not to mention your screwed if you get a link or 2. An this helps a player from 12-70 how?? Yeah maybe if i was 75 on another job. Then i could see doing it for a lower lvl job. But wait, now you have just contributed to the problem of lack of players exping. Enms either take a group of players, or cash, an for what a few thousand exp. Ballista yeah maybe, if you can get your job high enough to the lvl requirment, actually have participents, an be on when a match is getting started. Besieged?? Ohh yes please bring your lvl 20's to that, you sure will make a great contribution there. my jobs with merits in weapons an acc gear have a tough time hitting mobs an taking the 1k AoE's. Im sure a 12 whm will sure bring us victory..

You refuse to admit thru your fanboi daze. The exp system is flawed more now then it ever was. Back in the day it had its problems, 2 many DD, not enough healers, or tanks. an not enough places to go. But it was plentiful in the numbers who were seeking. Now not only do you have even less of the main jobs seeking, whm, tanks, But now you have a huge drop off of the number of players seeking. Its just not me whos noticed it, but other old forum members like Jei, an Ice Mage. All notice that the exp system will cause this game to crash in the near future,

Maybe you are right maybe this game isnt for those players who cant devote 4-8 hours a day to advance ever so slightly in this game. Maybe we need more players like the guy from hades who admited to playing FFXI for 12+ hours a day in the summer time to lvl his rng..

[Legal Fish]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I mean that's great and all, and I'm not saying you are wrong. However, this thread isn't about moaning the problems with the game, but fixing the low level ones, without changing the principals of the game. You are very offtopic, with flammable material no less, so kindly, for the third or fourth time: Shut up. It was annoying the first time, you know?

(PS. Take your issues with BBQWTF to PM. God knows that conversation will ruin this thread)

[dirtyclown]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Even though it is flamebait, he still makes a good point. Shit's broke, and just discussing it isn't going to fix it. There's alot of good ideas in here, and it disappoints me that it's all one big pipe dream.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Thats the point really. It's for fun, its a game with a small set of rules. If one couldn't understand that from the moment they entered this thread, then entering at all was one big mistake. Chocobo Breeding/Racing and everything else started as 'fun' too.

It's not like he is even doing anything, but complaining. He is just being one big negative annoyance. He even goes as far to paint himself as some FFXI legend and directly berates other people.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

To BBQWTF's posts, I find terms "lazy" and "played intelligently" kind of ridiculous, even elitist. I don't think it would help anyone to think that way.

Anyway, I've haven't even directly changed Exp, which I think all and all should remain the same. I'm going to post last suggestions of mine, but in review of the ones I've said before:

-Change the whole Adventurer's Coupon deal. Increases beginning gil to be used at NPC shops.

-Resting Bonus. Makes it easier to solo at lower levels(assuming the player is chaining weaker mobs), and as a side-effect, makes Signet have an effective bonus for all levels, like Sanction.

-Outpost NPC Assistance. A fix to players who can not use Outpost Warps or Raise until 25+. Hopefully encourages players to buy Warp scrolls and Reraise scrolls.

-Rank 2 Reward. Hopefully gets players interested in food early on. Also gives them a boost that they need, economically and in power.

-Nutritionist NPC. Useful for anyone who doesn't have Windower/another PC or friends with either. Helpful for all levels, especially on day 1 after an update, so players can check stuff themselves instead of waiting for a database to be ready.

Updating Graphics. Without changing the engine, make the pre-CoP world look nicer.

Auto-Sort Setting. Boggles the mind why this isn't in the game already.

Now changes that directly effect exp. I think, from early on, that parties should be encouraged. While resting bonus would help everyone(and really help soloers), these changes focuses on relying on others. The first one and the third one are to address the shortage of players at the 10-20(and related) level ranges. It's important to know

It is assumed all direct exp bonuses can be converted to limit points.

High-Level Advantage. For every job a player has at level 60 or higher, he gains a 1% bonus on exp levels 10 to 30 on another job with the use of Signet. This caps at 5% exp. The goal of this would be to encourage players to level other (lower) jobs, in addition, work on those subjobs their LS keeps bugging them about. Also a nice boost for anyone working on Maat's Cap ;o. In most cases, players will only receive 1% or 2% in the entirety of their career, small bonuses really, but on paper, they'll look good enough to convince some players. This bonus is never applied to a capped job that is higher level than 30.

Partying under levels 5 to 10. The amount of exp loss when partys of 2 or 3 kill a monster is reduced a great amount. I'm not going to get into mathematics, but generally, partying will be just as good or better than solo if the party members are competent.

PVP. Rewards for exp/limit points in Ballista and Brenner increase depending on how many participants they are. This isn't very low level, so I won't too much thought in it.

Fellows. Now this is an odd change, as its really two changes, and they are both "All levels", but apparently a problem is that there is a shortage of low-level party members.

1) The amount of exp loss from exping with a Fellow is equal to amount of exp lose for having another party member(solo being treated as Duo, a group of five being treated as a group of six) of the same level of the user. Kind of explains itself: Fellow now becomes available to become replacements or placeholders for party members.

2) A Fellowship's AI is improved, but perhaps requires a quest as they are quite strong. First off, a Fellow can cure and buff other party members, however he is still limited to not being able to be buffed by "party-only" buffs. The following options are opened up at a rendezvous point: Party Tactics. "In a party of 2 or more, should I rest when needed?" and "Should I use my Weaponskills freely?".

Kind of inappropriate for a topic like this one, but at the same time necessary. Fellows become very helpful for the reasons listed above.

Exp bonus added to Tactical Pearl quest. Simple really. You get half the exp your Fellow gets. Not too low-level based, but just something to get out of the way.

Eco-Warrior. First things first, when you die, you do not lose the 'scent' and when you DC the timer continues to run, but you don't lose the 'scent'. You do lose it when you zone out or simply run out of time. Another important change: You can only get the scent once a week, and once it runs out, its over until next week. Yet another important change: You can cancel and activate another Eco-Warrior just like an escort. Most important change: While you have the scent on, you gain a +15% exp bonus. This increases to +20% if a player has completed all three Eco-Warriors. This bonus does not stack with an exp ring's effect.

Basically, Eco-Warriors become awesome for group leveling and its popularity should be increased. Also, it discourages "clearers", which in my opinion, shouldn't be that great.

EFs. Borderline med-level as well, Expeditionary Forces becomes an incredible source of exp and new gear useful for low levels. I won't get into this too much, because maybe a how to fix Conquest/Mid-Lands could come up ;o! What would be nice to create something that could be as complex and entertaining the 'end-game' for low level players, to the point that higher-levels would love to go back and do it. Not only that, but EFs can have a huge range of levels... especially if you were to add Tavnazia.

BCNM Exp. As a nice boost, the first time you do a BCNM, you are rewarded with exp. Special note: If you are more than 5 levels under the cap, you do not get the exp bonus and it doesn't count as your first time doing it.

The amount of exp gained is determined by the following formula: Number of seals required * 100 / 2 or 4, a minimum of 1000. Divide by 2 if 6-man, divide by 4 if 3-man. Some examples:
BCNM20, 3-man = 1000exp
BCNM30, 3-man = 1000exp
BCNM40, 6-man = 2000exp
BCNM60, 6-man = 3000exp

KSNMs work in a similar manner. The requirement for the first-time bonus is level 65. 6-mans reward 3000 exp and 3-mans(I don't think there is any...) or 18-mans reward 1500.

When all battlefields of an orb is completed, talking to Shami will result in an exp scroll and a title. Keep in mind, there are 4 uncapped orbs. Dragon's Chronicles for cap 20 and 30. Miratete's Memoirs for cap 40, 50, 60, and KSNM.

Finding Faults / Art of War. Both are weekly quests found in Aht Urhgan. They require you to find a weakness of a popable NM, a weakness that changes weekly. You then have to tell the starting NPC that weakness(two weaknesses for Finding Faults) and wait 1 rl day. For Finding Faults you get IS if you got one weakness right and an additional ??? box if you got both right. For Art of War, you get a ??? box if you get the weakness right. Simply, I'd like to add a Dragon's Chronicle reward (to explain this simply) in addition to anytime a player gets a ??? box from the quest.

Escort Quests. The two lower level Escort quests: "The Big One"(cap 45) and "All by Myself" no longer count against your "One Escort per week activated or done a week" limit, they are completely separate from the uncapped ones and each other. In addition: "All by Myself" drops a Dragon Chronicles every time after the first completion, but only if Ken kills a certain amount of monsters.

Exp-Quest Series. I don't believe each quest should reward exp, but I think they should lead into something that does. A repeatable quest for each nation and for each level cap until level 40(4 quests for 3 nations). Rather than fame unlocking these quests, its the maximum amount of quests done that decides it. Let's say for an example almost all of the quests that require no fame, with an exception to Eco-Warrior(or any exp granting quest) or long-series quests(like the SOBs) unlocks the first tier of this. With each tier, require more and more higher fame quests being completed. Another requirement would be the minimum level of the cap, and or course, a member of the appropriate nation.

Each quest involves 1 to 3 players(no minimum amount of players, just maximum cap) popping a NM that drops a item or farming the item off normal mobs, taking that item trading it to a BC and fighting an easy, but tricky monster. The reward for each tier is probably 1000 for level 10, 1500 for level 20, 2000 for level 30, and 2500 for level 40. Players on a job 20 levels over the cap only receive half of the reward. To make things interesting, 2-hours are banned, preventing SMN's just going in and wtfpwning everything without effort.

One example: Tier 1 of Windurst. The group needs to speak with the starting NPC, where they are told the story behind their quest and where they need to head to for clues. They then need to pop a Pugil NM in Giddeus to get a keyitem. They travel to the Balga's Dais and enter the Battlefield. They have to defeat a Cardian who becomes immune to all but one type of damage and switches every 30 seconds(Slashing, Piercing, Blunt, and Magic) and casts the spells Banish, Dia, and Diaga. Otherwise, he is kind of a wimp, hits as hard as a EM would a WAR and has the HP of an IT++.

You add one or two cutscenes, maybe a subtle storyline like "For some reason, we've spotted a rebel Cardian actually communicating with the Yagudo, we want to you prevent any alliance that could form between them". This evolves with each tier, until finally, the players confront the big baddy, a demon who has ties to the Shadow Lord, but isn't directly connected to the plot of missions Rank 3-6. When they defeat the Demon, he curses them a bit and warps away, swearing that he will return... making this quest repeatable in logic. Maybe in Bastok, the story is different, with a cruel old pirate from Norg as the problem maker, or in San d'Oria a spy from Aht Urhgan.

That pretty much sums up what was on the my mind. There would be so many exp quests that a player with a LS full of level 20s or higher would have no problem doing them. ENMs + Extra CoP BCNM fights + Escorts + additions above should give people enough alternatives.

Have fun with the rest of the thread.

[Nazo]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

The problem with the nutritionist NPC is that you still have to buy the food to find out what it does and people aren't going to spend money on food, which can be quite expensive, just to find out what it does.
Maybe change the idea to an NPC that suggests appropriate food based on your current job / level? He / She could suggest a variety of foods for different purposes, eg. Att+ food, Acc + etc.

But really, why the hell even make people go to so much trouble to find out something pretty fundamental to the game? Would it really dumb down FFXI so much to just tell us in the description what it does? It wouldn't have to be an exact stats list or anything, just a general idea like you get with meds would be enough. I don't care how the food tastes, because I can't taste it. I'm not buying it because I fancy a tasty snack, I'm buying it because it's going to have a beneficial effect on my character's performance. If I don't know what a food does, I'm not going to buy it. And I'm not going to go to the trouble of memorizing lists of foods and their effects from a db website, logging out or running windower just so I can look something like that up.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I mean that's great and all, and I'm not saying you are wrong. However, this thread isn't about moaning the problems with the game, but fixing the low level ones, without changing the principals of the game. You are very offtopic, with flammable material no less, so kindly, for the third or fourth time: Shut up. It was annoying the first time, you know?

(PS. Take your issues with BBQWTF to PM. God knows that conversation will ruin this thread)

I stopped reading his post when I got to "fanboi" and, well, citing my entire post didn't help. Sheesh, just cite the part you take issue with and leave it at that.

In the jibbirish I was able to scan after it, his complaint appeared to be that you have to be really high level do get those EXP quests. Well, after getting this far in the game and having the ability to level other jobs, I consider bonus EXP to be gained from ENM, Ballista and Escort quests to be a reward for making it that far in the game.

Why should new players get such quests when the original player never got them? Just because WoW did it from day one isn't a good reason.

I wouldn't disagree with Rank Missions giving out some EXP, it would encourage players to see the story of Vana'diel from all national perspectives. It would give low level players an incentive to start those missions early, too and give them a fair boost on their early jobs.

But they'd have to fix the outpost warp system to ever make such a venture worthwhile for the entire playerbase. Losing all OPs when you change alliegence and being forced to retread those OPs is total BS.