How come JP don't like to pt with me?

[x1ang]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

And thus, refusing to invite NA because of the lack of respect of some non-Japanese people is racism.

However, using "racism," beyond being technically incorrect (again, I think it's more about cultural differences, not an actual issue of race), carries the wrong connotations. I think it is understandable for some Japanese to be hesitant about inviting non-JP players. It's human nature to, eventually, create stereotypes and preferences. If I always hear that French players are snooty, and if I have also had bad experiences with French players, I will be less inclined to invite a French player over another player. It's not fair, but it's inevitable.

With that said, absolutely refusing to party with a player only because of where s/he lives is extreme and shows very poor character.

Or it's due to the fact that there is the disadvantage of communication. If two people were seeking - equal in rank/level/eq/whatnot - except one is fluent in english and the other can't read/speak/understand a single word of it, who would you choose for a PT? Obviously in a game where PT communication is so important, you would choose the one where there would be no disadvantage and whatnot. English players would rather PT with other english-speaking players and vice-versa. It doesn't mean that they won't ever PT with a non-english speaking player, but it is their preference in order to have an effective PT.

[Cometgreen]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Or it's due to the fact that there is the disadvantage of communication.

Of course. We seemed to have been keeping that out of the conversation, though. I definitely prefer to be with players that I can easily communicate with, and depending on how I want to spend my time, I may turn down a JP party for a party with English speaking players. Though I think most parties can function, despite the language barrier, without there being too many head aches.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Yep, i get tells in Japanese all the time asking me to come party, and when I reply, explaining that I'm not Japanese - I get a string of wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww's.

Except when I'm on Brd or Whm (my Rdm isn't levelled enough yet).

[Nimrod4154]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Great guide, I'll use these tips.

[Arcade]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

My only considerations when partying with someone is their skill level and their ability to communicate effectively. Gear is secondary. Race doesn't even come into the equation.

Can't use the autotranslator, and can't speak anything I can understand? That's a problem. Not a problem with the player, and not really a problem with me either, but a problem when we're both trying to do something together.

Can't complete a skillchain or magic burst? Can't do damage without pulling aggro off of a decent tank? That's a problem. I don't enjoy partying with people who haven't got the fundamentals down. I'll do it if I have to, but you can't force me to like it.

As far as nationalities go, I'm more than happy to join an all-JP party as long as they'll tolerate my extremely limited understanding of romaji and frequent usage of the auto-translation function. By the same token, I never mind accepting JP players into my mostly-EN parties as long as they're able to make their needs known in some way, via translator or otherwise. That's the beauty of the translator - you don't have to speak the language to be able to communicate.

And for those who flag JP-only, well, all I can say is they're missing out. There's quite a lot of really excellent NA and EU players out there, just as there are a lot of quality JP players, and limiting your playing experience to those who only speak your language also limits the potential of your parties.


Icemage

Nuff' said.

[Mog]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Predominant parties always end up as a pitfall for the other side. Whenever I'm surrounded by JP's, I'll try to be as courteous as I can, use the translator function to the best of my knowlege

....and all I'll get 90% of the time is dead silence. I make an effort to communicate with them and all I get back in return is a shitload of JP writing in my chat-log. The nerve! The nerve!!!

[DakAttack]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

If it wasn't already mentioned, the first LS to kill AV was American, and also used an unacceptable method. They pinned it up against an invisible wall where it couldn't fight back. Leave it to the dumbass GMs to stand around and clap, but leave it to the NAs to find a way around everything.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

I think the guide would be more useful if it has a list of common auto-translator usages. Like, how the heck do I say "I need to leave soon; should I look for replacement" with auto-translator?

* * *

There are substantial differences between typical JP parties and EN (US) parties. I'll give a few examples of party invites I received on WHM40 when not seeking:

NA (most common)>> party?
NA (2nd most common)>> <Party>?
NA (rare)>> <Crawler's Nest> <Party> <Do you need it?>

(Note: My handle in-game is "Itazura", a Japanese word, so I usually get JP party invites in Japanese language, which I can read to some extend.)

JP (most common) >> "Excuse me, not placing an expectation on you, but would you be interested joining a Crawler's Nest party?"
(I translated a JP phrase as "not placing an expectation on you", but I think it means "I know you're not seeking and I'm probably bothering you"--it's almost an appology. >_>; )
JP (2nd most common): (same thing, except they add stuff like 4/6 party, what jobs they have already, etc.)

And, what happens when I turned them down with a "<I'm sorry> <I have plans.> m(_ _)m " reply?

NA (most common) >> (nothing. I hear absoultely nothing back.)
NA (extremely rare) >> np

JP (most common) >> "I understood; sorry to have distrubed you." (or something like that.)
JP (2nd most common) >> (same thing, except they also thanked me for responding.)

* * *

US party leaders expect little in ways of politeness, and often tend not spend extra effort on being polite themselves. They also are likely to ignore you as soon as you prove "unusable". I don't think they are mean or anything, but US party leaders are usually in a hurry to put the party together before people get frustrated and invent excuses to leave a still forming party.

With JP players, even the worst party leader I ever had was patient, polite, and did his best to keep the party informed. (I'm talking about a total noob who asked a RNG for a skeleton party, and was out damaged by the RNG on his MNK. ) They also don't mind taking time to form parties in general, at least during the horrible hours I can play.

* * *

There are hosts of other differences, and it's actually worth writing a more detailed guide for EN players on how to deal with JP parties on their own terms.

/nudge

[Standablaze]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Most of these tips are great, I wish I had of known them a year ago, I learnt the hard way.

I party with Japanese people ~50% of the time being in the EU timezone. How do I do this?

I sat down and learnt how to speak a small amount of Japanese. If you want to party with Japanese people, learn a small amount of the language, even if its geared to the game (i.e, game terms). Japanese people do not tend to use the Auto translator. If you look at an English speaking party (because NA and EU are hard to tell apart most of the time as both/most speak english) they will use the auto translator even when there arent any Japanese people in the party, a lot of it comes down to being able to type "The", hit tab, and come up with "The Boyahda Tree" faster than typing. Japanese dont do this, and rarely will you see a japanese shout with a translated word. I don't know why they do this, but learn the language. If you can't be bothered, play later in the day when more english speakers are on. Really, learning the language goes so far. I've been the (bad ) translator in Garrisons where we had a Japanese player who hadn't a clue what was going on or how the money was being split later or when we where going farming for more key items to trade to the NPC. Even though I could only speak a bit of Japanese and I wasnt too good with grammar at that time he got the general idea and was very friendly about it, I have the person on my friendlist now and see him around town regularly.

Someone mentioned search comments, I completely agree again. GMT time, 10am, 10 people LFPing, 8 are "J", 1 is "E" and the other is "JE". Guess which two dont have a search comment and will be the only ones lfping in 10 minutes time?

A lot of people put their status as bi-lingual but can't speak a word of Japanese (and sometimes I wonder if they can speak English properly). Why? Japanese people tend to take this for granted that you CAN speak Japanese and English and will /tell you Japanese. The moment they see "Umm..." "Hello!" they go onto the next person because they know the person is not bilingual.

Learning the language goes a long way. I've met many Japanese people ingame who spoke good to decent English and where taken back by me being able to speak Japanese. Some thought it was odd but didnt mind, and one person thanked me for taking an interest in their language like a lot do to mine. You will get people who will think you are a Japanese person pretending to be a foreigner, but its few and far between and the last time I had this, the two JP players apoligised when I told them I really *was* a native english speaker.

In regards to the JPONLY thing, I personally havent seen it in a long long time. I use to be able to draw up a search, any level, and find one Japanese person with it, I havent saw that in a long long time (half a year?). The most you will find are people who have "I don't speak any English!" in their comment and probably wont party with you if you ask them in english; thats not racism, its them not understanding you and probably taking for granted you wont be using the auto translator, just how Japanese dont use it. A simple "konbanwa, pt isshoni shimasenka?" can change that and have them say "yes, please".

As again someone said, English players tend to run out of Jeuno gung-ho style when they've found out where they are going, and sometimes die on the way and the party havent even left on chocobo yet! I've seen it happen. Most Japanese parties tend to stay toghether. If its one Japanese person in an English speaking party, they wait on the rest of the party to gather by the chocobos and will not leave untill the rest of us do.

I'll probably get my head written off for this post because after reading it, it sounds very confrontational, but its not Its generally what I've seen in-game when it comes to Japanese people and my experiences with them. Sometimes I'll gladly take a Japanese party over an English speaking party, why? They get straight to the point, its rare to have a JP party dilly dally in Jeuno or at camp when they should be pulling mobs! Today we had a red mage leave 20 minutes into our party with no warning, leaving us with a black mage main healer (although it was the blms idea to main heal while we waited, no use standing around), that would not generally happen in a JP party and warning would have been given prior so we can get someone (in this situation, replacements are an obvious yes because the party is in early times).

Yeh, well, thats my opinion.

[Hamlet]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

I disagree with the rep tip. Generally speaking, getting a rep is a good thing. Not letting anyone know and then having a rep show up is not so good, but better than just dropping the pt without any notice and no rep showing.

The best of all situations is saying, "Hey, I've got to leave in 30 min (or 15, 10, an hour, whatever), do you guys want me to find a rep?"

Then, you get either, "(yes, please)" (more often than not)

or you get one guy saying, "Well, I've got to leave soonish" then another saying the same thing and then the pt agreeing they will just disband when you have to go.

The key is communication, but I really think a rep is better than no rep.

When I first read it, I thought it was a guide to pting with JPs. I could understand that communicating that you will be leaving soon and asking if you should get a rep would be hard, and then maybe in that situation (in a majority of jp pt), then you should just give some kind of notice and then leave it up to the leader to get a rep.

Otherwise, in an all NA pt, I really appreciate it when people put in some effort to get a rep for themselves.

[ikkleste]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

There will always be people that go against the flow. I'm certain that in most parties, they wouldn't appreciate you finding a replacement without notice.

Either way talking about it can sort the problem. As i say i agree with those that say the leader should be inviting replacements, but if he asks me to when i say "i've half an hour left" then i will look and replace. The problem obviously arrises when people replace themselves willy nilly, without consulting the pty. In essence i think this is what your are most agreived about. But theres no reason why the other way can't work acceptably, previded people talk.

The leader will not always have a set location before the pt is assembled. Different job combinations would offer advantages in different zones. You just need to put trust into your leader. And to ask the leader before you even join the pt, then to reject his offer because YOU had a bad experience there, is being quite narrow-minded dont you think? I've had bad experieneces everywhere, but great experiences in different parties in the same spots.

hmm.. well provided the leader told me thats what he was doing i'd be fine (even reasured by it) If he doesn't want to commit to a camp until he gets the party i'd jump on the party in a flash. It says a lot about the level of thought going into it. MOst leaders wuolodn't do that though... they decide on the nomal track... Dunes, quifm, jungles, garliege, CN etc first. I'm not totally against places but may need some reassurance that the leader has a clue before i let him drag me there (i'm looking at you garliege). Still JP/NA/EU it always helps when the leader gives you a clue what his plan is.

You really can't compromise. Think about how that would work? So let's compromise as you've said. Ok, rules are, we travel together and you listen to the pt leader. But as a compromise, we all are allowed to find replacements without notice? Really, the points I've litsed in the original post were not meant solely for JP parties. It would be nice to see the same etiquette applied to EN parties.

thats not what i'm saying i'm saying if these 'rules' are a point of contension for you, say for example breaking their ettiquette of going to camp together, then disscuss it with the leader and try and find a compromise. The replacment point can be sorted either way if you only discuss it with the leader. If you only have an hour but would like to join the party anyway discuss it. He may not want you but he may accept you.
I don't see why though that we should automatically conform to their conventions while they make no effort to move to ours, or even compremise.

[JeanRC]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

some people just cant accept the fact that they are bad in some ways.
i personally speak so much better english then my poor japanese but i really cant find many good english players. There are too many black sheep that spoil the player that speak english, so much so that i myself will try to avoid them as much as possible.
Btw today i meet a bad japanese ninja tank but lucky the warrior is so much better + some blu stun = good party.
I always want to know more good and helpful english but i always see the opposite >.<
Maybe is my luck

[Spinnthrift]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Ask me for a world pass then JeanRC.

Come see how European guilds live, come party with us and see how the other side live. When we do everything in our power to make us the best players we can be, and suffer from a fear of actions which we have neither commited, nor encouraged, but are tainted with the sins of other people (not our fathers).

Maybe then you'll understand why some of us - feel quite strongly that elements of this society are racist beyond belief, including towards the Europeans... especially when EU HNMLS's regularly take down the Kings, Sea, Sky, etc... but aren't deemed HNMLS's because... they're Europeans.

Come play with proper gamers from the other side, and realise we're not all that dissimilar. Sure - we do some things different, and some things will make your head get scratched, but by the by... we're gamers at heart. We live to play games as best we can when work/rl allows.

There's the invitation...

[dirtyclown]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

ITT Japan is superior. This should be stickied, for it is full of lol. I've been playing since PC release and all of my experiences with this game have come down to 2 things.

1) Regardless of language barrier, there are Xenophobic jerkasses on every side.
2) Respect and communication is the winrar.

There's no need for a guide on how to PT with players who come from a different country. You're making it sound like some ritual that needs to be followed in order to play with the awesome group of people who live in the east. Simply being sensible and not acting like a douche works just fine, bending over backwards isn't required.

[Murphie]

Re: How come JP don't like to pt with me?

Simply being sensible and not acting like a douche works just fine, bending over backwards isn't required.

That pretty much sums it up, folks.