3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Well let's just accept that all GMs are bastards who can't do awsome things. Instead of putting ppl in jail, GMs should come in, hit players once, and make them delevel 5 times and have them randomly lose 3-5 pieces of equipment permanently. THAT would be justice. See how often you bot/mpk if you get GM smacked out of your AF armor or God Gear.

And the fault itself lies in the wording, and as I said, there are different interpretations. SE will need clearer vernacular because if taken literally, any program running in the background while you are playing FFXI could be considered 3rd party.

True, which means, like law in IRL we have to look to previous situations to clarify. Such as SE holding a FFXI movie contest. =P And saying that in that instance, they weren't expressly saying FRAPS is legal, is just trying to keep the argument open and not accepting the obvious.

And I've gotta hand it to you Wish. That's probably the best and would be the most effective penalty I can think of. Unfortunately, like in the situation that started this whole thing we'd run into GM's who either abuse that ability or don't exercise it nearly enough.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

GMs FTW!

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/07/22

There was this other one where he totally forced this guy to give him some piece of armor then threw it away a panel later. I wonder what would happen if they made ACTUAL gamers GMs. You know, people who understand how to spot someone who is truly an MPKer, someone who has an extensive network of gamers that they can utilize? I doubt it'll happen, I know that if I become a GM, I'd probably show favoritism to my RL friends and force spawn Vrtra, or tank Fafnir using God Mode or something, or give myself money to clean out the AH, take the money from their delivery boxes, and distribute the funds among the ppl and sell Scorpion Harnesses for 5mil again. . .

OT:
Is anything in the POL folders is illegal also, right? So something like, using a program like ModelViewer to find out what the .dats are so that I can swap pieces of gear falls under that category? I suspect it is so, but like a lot of other modifications, it's benign.

Windower is evil. . . They have an app for distance. I know a RNG that has like no Racc+ and is stacking Ratk and STR gear. He does insane damage. . .

[Macht]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

If you are on a PS2 and you are using a computer while playing then you are "enhancing your playing experience" by being able to search the net for info. How then can a PC user not try and do the same thing unless they are both mutually wrong. All I see are people complaining about people using Fraps or the windower like they are sins.

Have no problems with Fraps currently and the older version of windower when it was simply just a windower. In that case both I could careless.

FRAPS I currently could care less it hasn't proven to provide any exploit that allows a player to speek hack, or do various and clearly illegal actions. The new windower however is an issue now, because it does provide potentials for speed hacks and doing over various and clearly illegal actions.

Now for hypothetical if FRAPS was found to do a speek hack then it would no longer be cleared program by SE. In that case past referrence become irrelivant. Which is why I state that you have to keep up-to-date on which are and are not, this thread shows that many who use a program like FRAPS can't really provide relivant proof that FRAPS is legal.

That was until Intensity provided the comment about a FFXI movie contest, that is probably the only most resent action that could validate FRAPS as being ok still. Otherwise you can't always use past refferences to validate a programs use, what if something was found were FRAPS created an exploit that was found after that movie contest. The program would be illegal even though it's past instances suggested it was legal.

So you have to be sure you are staying aware of the programs legality, because it could quite literally change overnight. Heh, seems I'm still beating on this dead horse.....wonder if a rib will be expose if I keep poking it

/me runs off to find a long sharp stick.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Actually I think FFassist is what you're talking about concerning the distance measuring. Reads it out in meters. Windower might have it but I haven't tried it out yet.

EDIT to Macht: That like saying asprin is legal, but only because they haven't found out it can harm you yet. The issue here isn't whether FRAPS will be illegal in the future after modifications or add-ons are updated for it. The issue here is whether FRAPS, in it's present state, is in any way against the TOS. I have yet to see anything presented supporting this idea.

[zettair]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

I don't know if Fraps was previously legal or not. In fact, I don't personally know what programs are. I haven't been playing FFXI for a few years(plan to start again soon). However, I'm not saying whether Fraps is illegal or not. My gut instincts say no because I don't consider a video or screenshot capturing program to truly be effecting FFXI because it isn't changing anything with the program. Now, if Fraps added say, a button inside of FFXI so you could take pictures. Then yes, I would then say Fraps is illegal but that is hypothetical. Fraps doesn't do that.

I didn't have a problem with the older windower either because I only used it so that I could continue to talk with people or work on homework. I never used it to try and hack anything although I'm sure it could because it does demonstrate how FFXI can be hoodwinked. I think that might be more of the reason why Square doesn't like the program. By discouraging use of such a program they hope to keep people from then using programs that hoodwink FFXI even more and that then do speed hacks and botting.

[Omniblast]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

it's not stupid if it shuts the morons up once and for all.

*sigh* I guess so. However I do remember someone stating this fact a long time ago. Same thing with the Treasure Hunter on the last hit or not. I'm not sure if i remember or not, but does Treasure Hunter +1 items stack or not?

Making an analogy off of what someone earlier said, running a red light and speeding are both illegal, but if both happen at the same time, the speeder has a bigger penalty because what they are doing endangers more people, so the law enforcer might turn their head to the light-runner.

There is a forseeable factor that running the red light could possibly cause a accident such as hitting a pedestrian or other vehicle(s). There is also forseeable that the speeder can hit a pedestrian or other vehicle(s).
The police officer (GM) makes the verdict call on who or both would get the ticket even if there is only 1 officer available. Both could easily be caught (call other officers) or only 1 could have been caught. But once again, this is up to the officer (GM). They made that decision, whether it is correct or not. Then the Judicial branch comes in play and the courts make that decision on whether nor not that is or is not correct call for the officer. There is no Judicial Branch for Square Enix.

Now back to 3rd party applications. One of the reasons why (I think, In my opinion) they could have made that disclaimer in their TOA is so that if anything happens to your character as a result of your using a 3rd party application to screw up their data, so they can turn around and say, "I'm sorry we cannot help you due to the nature of the incident."

Well let's just accept that all GMs are bastards who can't do awsome things. Instead of putting ppl in jail, GMs should come in, hit players once, and make them delevel 5 times and have them randomly lose 3-5 pieces of equipment permanently. THAT would be justice. See how often you bot/mpk if you get GM smacked out of your AF armor or God Gear.

This sounds like a good idea, except that it should be levels and it should be permenant. "Hey I'm level 70 and I can't level up any more! GM's permentantly deleveled me 5 levels! wtf!?!"

Or atleast delevel all their jobs to level 1. That would be awesome. Everytime Gil Sellers or Botters or whatever gets up to level 60, SMACK delevel to 1. Hey SE still gets paid regardless correct? What more do you want than them to receive more payment for someone that keeps wanting to play the game, even after they deleveled?

* Macht runs off to find a long sharp stick.

*hands Macht a sharp stick, axe, hammer & cleaver*
You mind if I have a whack at it too?

Actually I think FFassist is what you're talking about concerning the distance measuring. Reads it out in meters. Windower might have it but I haven't tried it out yet.

The helpful .dll's for window are as follows expwatch.dll, Tparty.dll, Bloodpace.dll, distance.dll.

expwatch = shows how much tnl, your exp / total tnl, how long period of time since that mob died (for chains), and how much exp per hour.
Tparty = shows how much tp your party & alliance has
Bloodpace = shows blood pact time left till you can use it
distance = shows the distance between you and your selected target. Unknown unit of measure.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Thanks for the info Omni. I knew about the Tparty but that's automatically on. Haven't tried anything else. I use something else for all those anyway. >.>

[Aeni]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

The built in SS program only works if you remove the overlays, but it also tags the photo with the SE copyright information. I'll have to look at my older SSs but I could swear that before the SS program use to work when the overlays were there, if that is the case then SE intentionaly made that change which again brings question of FRAPS really being that clean a program it could be falling into a grayish area now.

Have to keep in mind online agreements are changing they never stay like they were when first created. So it is necisary to keep up-to-date on the agreements so you are not unintentionaly doing something illegal. Which circulates back to my position of just taking it as any 3rd party program or none.

Umm, Macht, POL's SS utility NEVER could take SSs with the chat overlay on top. Even in Closed Beta and Open Beta, you always had to "Scroll Lock" and then hit the "Prt Scn" button to take SSs. Again, it has more to do with technical limitations in the PS2 as one of the devs said, but he never did elaborate on what those limitations were.

Also, as Intensity said, I could take a video camera or a digital camera and still take a screenshot. The only difference is that FRAPS can produce a cleaner copy while the former options might not.

If you don't believe me, play WOW. Their screenshot utility works much in the way FRAPS does and takes screenshot with chat and everything else intact.

Everyone of you also know that, even using POL SS utility that there is only one legal way of using it, right? That's having to use the /name command in conjunction with taking a screenshot. Also, SE used to host a screenshot competition (I'm not sure if it is still ongoing, but the latest Vana'Diel Times do not have this competition anymore) and that was a big requirement for submitting screenshots and there was a disclaimer that said to the effect that this also applies to outside of competition (Meaning you're not allowed to screenshot with players name visible)

[Kitsune]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

From this discussion it sounds like we are all going to get banned from FFXI because we are using Microsoft Windows.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

From this discussion it sounds like we are all going to get banned from FFXI because we are using Microsoft Windows.

QFT

[x1ang]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

well then .DAT swapping/editing would be just as bad no?

[DieselBoy09]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

*jumps into the fire*

[little ninja]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

well then .DAT swapping/editing would be just as bad no?

To quote a part of AKosygin's post of the aggrement 'To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;...'

so everyone playing with the .dats are violating ToS. switching your moggle to a taru is violating the agreement.

is fraps right or wrong does not matter to me. ive been running fraps long before FFXI was installed on my pc, an i will be running fraps long after FFXI has left my hard drive.

[x1ang]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

well if you go into the "moral" argument.. i don't see anything wrong with using Fraps (well.. i can't imagine anyone having a problem with someone using fraps) or windower or .dat swapping for that matter. sure with Fraps there's no potential for abuse as there is in using the windower or .dat swapping, but in the general sense of using a windower, for what it is itself, i can see nothing wrong with it... alttabbing around your desktop isn't going to be harmful (using windower to hack is another question however). personally, i see it as the idea where "one's right to privacy (ex. swinging a fist) ends where another's begin (ex. the nose)"

is there anything wrong with using ffassist/windower/recast/etc.? not in my eyes... sure SE doesn't want you to use them and i understand the point, but i couldn't care less if i played knowingly with people who used those tools as it doesn't help them steal NMs over other players, etc. i do belive the GM was being abusive (as wasn't it proven in the thread?).. and why are GMs always put under a suspicious scrutiny? because they are in a position of power and have the potential to abuse it (kinda contradictory with the use of windower eh?). anyways yeah :3

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Okay, fraps overlays on everything. When you take a screenshot with it you're taking a screenshot of "what the video card sees" minus the fraps overlay. I make that distiction because windower takes a screenshot of FFXI.

Specificly, FRAPS does -not- inject itself into FFXI, or deal specificly with FFXI memlocs. What it does do, more or less, is grab outgoing video information. This is not illegal, provided you do not attempt to sell that outgoing FFXI footage or screenshots.

Windower screenshotting -does- inject into FFXI. It actually replaces FFXI specific functions.

I don't know if anyone else understands the legality of the differences, but there you have it. One injects/hooks to FFXI, the other injects/hooks to windows using the DX API, which is legal.