3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

[Aeni]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

Because, technically according to the letter of the law, its is against the TOA. The only way you can take a SS in game is by getting rid of all the overlays. Using a non-SE program to take SS's that show everything is obvioulsy not what the devs intended.
Now, will a GM give you a warning or anything at all for using fraps? I personally don't think there is any way in the world unless you just happened to get the biggest a-hole of a GM there is. Note: You'd also have to be telling people that you are using it too, there's no way for them to know otherwise. I still don't specifically say that I use a windower ingame, regardless of whether or not GM's even care anymore.

Again, please don't get pissed or anything like that. I'm not telling you that you're a horrible person for using it. Like I said, I use it myself. Just understand if you get technical, we're all breaking the TOA by using it.

LOL ... I can't believe you people buy into this.

FRAPs existed before Final Fantasy XI. It was originally a benchmarking tool and it is officially endorsed by MANY developers out there.

http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/develope...6515.htm?prn=Y

People, get your facts straight before going all "ape shit" about legal stuff many of you don't even have any knowledge of.

Again and I reiterate here once more: If FRAPS is illegal, by definition, so is running Winamp.

Oh yes, I must add that link is to an Intel developer resource site. You can also dig this up on Microsoft's Direct X site as well as Nvidia's and ATI's site. Again, this program was not made solely to run with FFXI. Apparently, it just did and people found that taking screenshots was a great thing with using the program.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Aeni is 100% correct. The reason using FRAPS isn't breaking the TOS is because it does not affect, alter, or modify FFXI at all. Its sole purpose is to capture images on your screen. As far as advertising or using any of the images you do capture or publishing them anywhere, that could be against the TOS because as someone said before, they're copyrighted material. But the use of FRAPS is perfectly legal.

[Caspian]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

LOL ... I can't believe you people buy into this.

FRAPs existed before Final Fantasy XI.

And murder existed before the Ten Commandments. I fail to see how a timeline changes the fact that its a 3rd party program.

Was SquareEnix on the list of one of the MANY developers that supported FRAPS? That might lend a little support for your belief.

Next time you're on, call a GM. After waiting a few hours ask them if there is any way possible that using FRAPS could in any way be construed as a violation of the TOS, no matter how slight.

Where in my post did I say that I thought using FRAPS was bad or that you shouldn't use FRAPS? I don't care what you do. I use it all the time. I also run windower which can not be argued against at all. Use of 3rd party programs is against the TOS. It is a 3rd party program that interacts with it, no matter how small the interaction actually is.
Technically its against the law for me to cross a residential street, in the middle of the street late at night when absolutely noone is around. In reality, noone actually gives a shit and nothing is going to happen to you for it. You're acting like we're calling you an evil person for using the program. I think its fair to say that noone cares, do what you want.
And, "buying into this"? Its law. Its constantly changing and is argued greatly on point of view. You convince someone that your point of view of the law is the correct one, guess what, you win.

[Sugesuke_Plain]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

that isnt the point. whether or not it gives an advantage or not, any and all 3rd party programs are prohibited by the ToA. many pc users use windower also. just because lots of ppl use it doesnt mean its ok under the ToA.

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

[bikkebakke]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

Very good point since they most certainly did not build in a method for video capture.

[Intensity]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

QFT

w00t I love dinging.

[Aeni]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

And murder existed before the Ten Commandments. I fail to see how a timeline changes the fact that its a 3rd party program.

You say that's SE's official stance. Nowhere did they say this. Don't believe me? Go and read the TOA yourself and explicitly point out (Quote it please, word for word with no alteration or translation) and post here.

Obviously if they can have a video contest at the Fan Festival... they dont have any problem with people using fraps

Exactly.

God people, use &&*#$*&E% common sense. ;3

[Caspian]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

You say that's SE's official stance. Nowhere did they say this. Don't believe me? Go and read the TOA yourself and explicitly point out (Quote it please, word for word with no alteration or translation) and post here.

You have a copy of it? I'm at work and can't get on Playonline right now.

[Omniblast]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

LOL ... I can't believe you people buy into this.

FRAPs existed before Final Fantasy XI. It was originally a benchmarking tool and it is officially endorsed by MANY developers out there.

http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/develope...6515.htm?prn=Y

Hey lookie what I found on the intel website for developer tools.

Xylobot* is Useful in Creating Media Workloads

Xylobot* is a generic game-development tool that is compatible with most DirectX games. Xylobot can record keyboard and mouse actions, and then play back those actions within the application. This functionality is particularly useful in creating online games. Xylobot can generate a reproducible workload, where a series of actions are scripted. With Xylobot, the developer can produce a series of similar sequences using the scripting tool, and then profile that sequence any number of times. This functionality allows developers to make changes to their code, then compare and correlate one profiled sequence to each subsequent sequence.

So it must be ok to bot as well! Since it's endorsed by developers & Intel! WOW EXCELLENT!

BTW: This is fun.

You have a copy of it? I'm at work and can't get on Playonline right now.

https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/index03.html

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

First thing I've found. Concerning the publishing and use of anything you could get from running FRAPS.

The unauthorized use, duplication, transmission, display, performance or distribution of any items owned by you or third parties, or any other commission of any act of copyright, trademark, or patent infringement, trade secret infringement or misappropriation, or any other violation of any intellectual property or other proprietary right;

At work so gimme a min to find the 3rd pt software portion. On the phone currently.

[Macht]

Re: GM Got Nasty ; ;

Again and I reiterate here once more: If FRAPS is illegal, by definition, so is running Winamp.

Technically by SE's ToS that is correct. Remember I'm saying a big key word here TECHNICALLY, this means that at any point SE could deam the program illegal to use in conjunction with their game. As long as you agree to their ToS then to be complying you would have to stop all use of the program while the game is running.

And like I already stated the only person who'd every really be complaining about the use of something like Fraps or Winamp would be some extreeme purist.

It doesn't matter one bit if the program is backed by many other developers if it isn't backed by the developer you are using it on it is an illegal 3rd party program. At the points we are getting down to though is just like the laws you can find such as it being illegal to put a horse in your bathtub.

Going with the horse thing, first off who'd really care if you put a horse in your own bathtub if the horse fits just fine? Second who'd really want to enforce such a silly law?

That is all I'm stating, it is technically an illegal 3rd party program so it's basically use at your own risk. As far as I'm aware there is no reason for the GM to be targeting that program so it isn't like you'll be punished for using it. You're far more likely to be punished for using Windower because it is know to have potential to be more detrimental to the game then Fraps or Winamp.

As it breaks down though it is technically an illegal 3rd party program. If for some stupid as hell reason the GMs decide to get you for those certain reasons they would be in the right on a simple technicality.

[Intensity]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Well, I've looked at each agreement on playonline.com and I can't find the use of 3rd party software portion. Granted, haven't read them all top to bottom, but I did a fair amount of skimming. I'll read it all the way through tonight after work, but if someone else could find the part of the TOS that says "User can't use any 3rd party software etc..." it'd probably put this argument to rest.

[KamuroIshigami]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

In theory this should clear things up, however, it may just cause more debate on this.

In any case, justice is not stupid to not consider the spirit of the Terms of Service and read solely on the letter of the terms of service. Furthermore, if you read the Terms of Service, it actually says something else.

In the PlayOnline Member Agreement (you can find this under Support and Services) section 4.4 says they can revoke or suspend your account if you break any of the listed activities. At this point, it is important to note subsection B, I, and J.

Subsection B says: "Interfering with or obstructing the operation of the PlayOnline Service;"

Subsection I says: "Use of any cheat codes or cheat devices; or"

Subsection J says: "Violating any Rule." (Probably Rules of Conduct)

Then if you go to the Rules of Conduct, section 2 "Prohibited Conduct" says that you may not do the following and one of them says:
"Use of third party equipment or programs for controlling characters without the player's presence."

So, the definition is very specific. However, there is one more thing I want to cover before I move on to the actual discussion of the topic.

In section 2.4 of the Software License Agreement:
"To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not: (a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;..."

Now, what does this make legal and not legal? It becomes a bit more clear (if you understand the wording). FRAPS does not modify the POL or FFXI software, and it doesn't allow you to cheat, it doesn't give you any unfair advantage while playing the game. So FRAPS is clearly in the WHITE and OK area, so is your Anti-Virus software.

What about the Windower and the POLUtils?

The Windower is borderline and it depends on what plugin you enable on the Windower. It does not modify any of the files or the program, but it modifies the processes. What the MAKER/CREATOR of the Windower did violated THEIR ToS with SE, because they did some decompiling or some reverse engineering to make their software interface. But as far as you are concerned, the Windower just windowing the software doesn't give you much of an advantage (if at all). However, because you are applying to the modification of the process of the software, they CAN argue that because you have modified the running process you have modified their software as it is not running in a way they programmed it. So, there is some room for debate, but it gets farther in to the BLACK and NOT OK area as you enable more and more plugins that are more "helpful" during game play.

THe POLUtils is clearly in the black area, sorry, I wish it wasn't. Even though it is not cheating and the GMs can't really check it (unless SE ran a program process like WoW), it is technically illegal because it modifies the files directly. So while it doesn't break the cheating or violations of Rules of Conduct rules, it violates the Software License Agreement. However, because of the spirit of the rule and the difficulty (generally) in proving the modification of files on YOUR computer, they generally look the other way. That is where the spirit of the rule come in.

If it is obvious to them that there is no way you could be doing something in game without modifying the game, then they are going to catch you, especially if it lets you do something that is going to piss or annoy others to report you. But if you are going to do something that is harder to detect and more nebulous, they are going to leave you alone and fry the bigger fish first.

It is almost analogous to the difference between robbing a convienence store and speeding on a highway. If you cheat or "bot" or RMT (rob a store) you are going to be caught and taken down; if you just like your JP client to read English or just to see the text files (speeding) you may just get a ticket or might get away scott free. Both are illegal, but robbing a convienence store has more overall negative impact than speeding on a freeway.

Remember, the GMs can only do so much, so their priority goes to enforcing rules that are broken that make the community not happy. So long as you don't flaunt your modifications or technical violations (analogous to speeding down a freeway then cutting off a cop in their lane) you should be okay.

BE FOREWARNED! If you are doing something sneaky and dirty even on an ethical level, you will have hell to pay when you are caught!

If you are paranoid, don't use ANY of the programs that has something directly to do with POL or FFXI. Otherwise, you should be able to figure out which one is okay and which one is not. Remember, YOU are committing the violation, not the program. People kill people, guns don't kill people. So don't do something stupid with the programs!

[Caspian]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

Thanks AKo, thats the info I was looking for. It appears I was mistaken. I believed the TOS to say something other than it actually did. Should have dug it up before I jumped into this.

[KamuroIshigami]

Re: 3rd party apps (from GM got nasty thread)

I would also like to add one more little detail for those that whine to the GMs:

"Well, so and so also did this, they didn't get suspended so why should I be?"

Dude, you got caught and they didn't, tough luck. Try saying that to a cop after speeding on the freeway and see what they say; they will still give you that ticket.

And also, "So and so got this too, why can't I get it?"

Remember, you are player, you see what happens only between you and the GMs and not others with the GMs. You don't know everything that went on in the incident, don't think you know it all, because you don't. So something may have happened that was different between you and your friend that changed the situation. So don't think the GMs are treating you unfairly, there was probably something different in the situation between you and your friend. Ask about it once, and if they explain that they can't do it because it is different, leave them alone. Pissing the GMs off will lower your chances of them actually helping you, be nice, be friendly while being persistent. If you mouth off, they are going to just (roll their eyes) and ignore you.

And a personal tip: I can safely say to you all that our enforcement of policies at FFXIOnline.com will be fairly propotional to the enforcement taken by the GM Team. If you do something here where if you have done it in game will cause the GMs to come down hard on you, you better believe that the same will happen here. Don't ask, don't tell is the best policy with some of the stuff. But if you are blatant or causing other problems, don't be surprised if we throw the book at you.

OFFICIAL / LEGAL NOTICE: "The failure of FFXIOnline.com or its staff to exercise its rights or insist upon the performance of the user's obligation with us under our Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct shall not consitute a waiver or relinquishment of those or any other rights under our Rules of Conduct or Terms of Service."