Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

[Kafeen]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

why else would you need to be lvl 20 to get choco license?

20 is actually quite low, WoW is 40 before you can get a mount. It also forces the player into learning to play the game, avoiding aggro while on foot, rather than just relying on the Chocobo do do it for you. Something useful in dungeons you'll visit after level 20.

why else would said choco license quest take ~6hrs?

Realism? You feed the chocobo, it wouldn't want all its meals at the same time, you need to take time to earn its trust. You don't have to sit in 1 spot for 6 hours, you can leave to do other things between meals.

why make it so you need to get to lvl 30 first before getting an "advanced" job?

So people have time to learn their first job before they move on to the "advanced" job. To give them time to "advance" their playing skills.

[Pounce]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

Actually, I think the whole unlockable advanced job system is a throwback to tradition in Japanese console RPGs.

But I think it was a mistake, and one of the reasons why you have so many half-assed n00bs at low levels. They don't care about the job they're forced to play at the start, they just want to hit 30 ASAP.

[Hereaux]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

Interesting... very interesting.

Mind telling us more?

Oh and.. read this:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....591163987&rd=1

that was the funniest shit!!!

[Vinen]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

Actually, I think the whole unlockable advanced job system is a throwback to tradition in Japanese console RPGs.

But I think it was a mistake, and one of the reasons why you have so many half-assed n00bs at low levels. They don't care about the job they're forced to play at the start, they just want to hit 30 ASAP.

I disagree. On the mistake part, in fact I don't think they went far enough. I actually like how it was done. Although I think they should have made certain jobs unlockable at say level 60 etc, such as Summoner and Ninja. The summoner comment is largly based on how you used to need to be a level ~60 group to take on summons...............................

[Kailea]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

Actually, I think the whole unlockable advanced job system is a throwback to tradition in Japanese console RPGs.

But I think it was a mistake, and one of the reasons why you have so many half-assed n00bs at low levels. They don't care about the job they're forced to play at the start, they just want to hit 30 ASAP.

well I am glad they did it the way they did, makeing it so you have to be 30 to start the quest to get the other jobs, would you want someon to pick NIN or PLD as there FIRST job, heck no I would not -.- advanced jobs are supost to take more skill to play well then the main 6 and that is w3hy they desined it the way it is.

[Pounce]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

advanced jobs are supost to take more skill to play well then the main 6 and that is w3hy they desined it the way it is.

Uhm...no.

Attitudes like that are exactly the reason why jobs like WAR and MNK were unfairly snubbed once upon a time.

There is nothing more advanced about playing advanced jobs than basic jobs. NIN might be the only exception.

[Vinen]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

well I am glad they did it the way they did, makeing it so you have to be 30 to start the quest to get the other jobs, would you want someon to pick NIN or PLD as there FIRST job, heck no I would not -.- advanced jobs are supost to take more skill to play well then the main 6 and that is w3hy they desined it the way it is.

I disagree. Advanced Jobs are neither more powerful nor more diffcult to play. One of the hardest jobs to play well happens to be a starting Job, Red Mage. Also, Prepartion for advanced jobs seems partially intended so that you have a Subjob at the time you gain the job.

Primary jobs are some of the best Subjobs in the game. Warrior, White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, Thief.. heck the only "poor" per say Subjob out of the primary jobs is Monk.

A person who is a shitty Ninja, probably sucks at other jobs they play. That or they just don't give a **** about the job and are just leveling it as a SJ. Same goes for any job.

[kuu]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

You say that like you forgotten what it was like the first time around.

Advance jobs ARE Harder to play then basic. They require SUB JOB, money, fame, knowledge, or some trait that you get your first time through.

Do you play a paladin without provoke?
Do you play a smn without avatars?
Do you play a ranger without paying for arrows?
Do you play Ninja without being able to get utsusemi or any tools?
etc.

The learning curve is way higher then basic jobs. Warrior tanks, blm nukes, whm heals, redmage middle mage, mnk DD, etc.. They're all straight fowards.. and stumbling your way throw 30 isn't nearly as difficult.

I remember my first time through I didn't even know how to use a bow till lvl 15, and had maybe 10k at any moment...yea you trying playing a ranger like that.

[Vinen]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

You say that like you forgotten what it was like the first time around.

Advance jobs ARE Harder to play then basic. They require SUB JOB, money, fame, knowledge, or some trait that you get your first time through.

Do you play a paladin without provoke?
Do you play a smn without avatars?
Do you play a ranger without paying for arrows?
Do you play Ninja without being able to get utsusemi or any tools?
etc.

The learning curve is way higher then basic jobs. Warrior tanks, blm nukes, whm heals, redmage middle mage, mnk DD, etc.. They're all straight fowards.. and stumbling your way throw 30 isn't nearly as difficult.

I remember my first time through I didn't even know how to use a bow till lvl 15, and had maybe 10k at any moment...yea you trying playing a ranger like that.

Harder != Money, and you are defining them as players play them, not in particular as SE intended them to be played. Main example being Ninja, right there you define their main ability as Utsusemi.

As I said in my post, you are prepared by gaining Subjobs. It also gives you more experince with the areas of the game, NPCs etc. Which are not related to jobs. A level 30 CAN do the Utsusemi quest... Nowhere does questing = difficutly of the job. Etc~

[Pounce]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

The subjob thing is a good point actually.

But that still doesn't make advanced jobs any harder than basic ones. 4 advanced jobs are melee DDs - RNG, DRK, DRG, SAM, and generally melee DDs are a lot easier to play than tanks/mages. Heck, a lot of them you can just hit autoattack and go AFK and still return to see that your party didn't notice that you were AFK.

PLD, SMN, BRD are more complex, but no more complex than WHM, BLM, RDM, or even a tanking WAR.

NIN and possibly BST are the only two advanced jobs that I'd say really are truely "advanced" - but only because players co-opted them into roles they weren't originally intended for.

NIN, as merely yet another dime-a-dozen melee DD isn't exactly hard to play. The same goes for BST. But people turned them into a complex tank job and a solo job.

[Icemage]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

rdm is pretty good in all ;3 even in promy grav helps if youre in trouble.

RDM is pretty blah at Promyvion-Dem, where Gravity won't help you at all since you generally straight tank the enemy (and it's of no use against the spawned babies). Not all that impressive at Diabolos either, since you can't convert safely, which takes pretty much all of RDM's advantage away. WHM outperforms RDM in both of those missions. At the 50+ BCs, RDM is again of limited worth. Refresh is nice, but you can chug yagudo drinks and mulsum to compensate. Dispel is nice, but you could bring a bard for Finale (and quite a few of the battles have nothing worthwhile to dispel anyway, like Snoll Tzar, where RDM is also pretty weak).


Icemage

[kuu]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

The subjob thing is a good point actually.

But that still doesn't make advanced jobs any harder than basic ones. 4 advanced jobs are melee DDs - RNG, DRK, DRG, SAM, and generally melee DDs are a lot easier to play than tanks/mages. Heck, a lot of them you can just hit autoattack and go AFK and still return to see that your party didn't notice that you were AFK.

PLD, SMN, BRD are more complex, but no more complex than WHM, BLM, RDM, or even a tanking WAR.

NIN and possibly BST are the only two advanced jobs that I'd say really are truely "advanced" - but only because players co-opted them into roles they weren't originally intended for.

NIN, as merely yet another dime-a-dozen melee DD isn't exactly hard to play. The same goes for BST. But people turned them into a complex tank job and a solo job.

All I can say is, your baises-ness towards mages isn't the best arguement in the world.

And money does equal hard, simply because it's part of your growth. You start from zero. Some gain it faster then others, but the more time -> more money.

Advance jobs require a depth that is not really in basic jobs 1-30. Almost all advance job have some nick nack that are better left the 2nd time around. Whether it be some concept of hate control, to skillchaining, to money.

If you're some brainac on ffxi-ism that can learn super fast, and go research online, etc fine. BUT that's not the general public.

There are key concepts that advance jobs assuming you know, or they'll make your life miserable.

"Why doesn't my dragon come back IF I go into town?(pre change to call wyervn) How do I look at my pet's HP?
What's hate? Why can't I tank?
What's skill chain?
My Samurai uses a sword but it's missing.
I can't afford tools or arrows.
Back then a smn without cure = worthless. This was before the avatar changed, and all smn were cure tanks till 25. Where's your subjob when you start?
The list goes on.

When I first played, My warrior used swords like all the other warriors(cause you get it at char creation), did I know axes where better? Nope. Wasn't that bad, War's have like B in most weapons. You probably have 5 out of 10 people that don't know about rankings, hate control, skillchaining, and end up with weirdness.

That's why basic jobs are so easy.

You try making a case that Rdm is difficult, but it's not until way HIGHER levels. Most redmages early level are just your fighter/mage. What's convert, what's refresh, what's dispell, they don't come till waaay later.

[Jei]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

how is THF WHM RDM easier than advanced job...? It is extremely important especially for the BASIC jobs like Whm and Rdm to KNOW what they're doing or they are ruining the PTs. There's no easy job mind you.

Basic/advance jobs to me they just use the concept from previous FF you will see, FF1, FF3 and FF5, their first set of jobs available to you were exactly the same: war, thf, mnk, whm, blm, rdm.
These jobs are no way easier to play but they hold true to the FF universe. If you are like me, old fans of the series, you'll *feel* that making pld/smn/ninja available from the start makes absolutely no sense at all as far as FF universe is concerned.

[tazirai]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

Sorry, Tazirai, but I'm simply going to have to disagree with your statement



While it's possible to win pretty much any of the battles with any one given job of your choice, the methods required to do so become increasingly restrictive, the farther you are from an "ideal" setup. There are so few people on the later missions that if your main job that you want to use in a specific fight is far from ideal, the vast, vast majority of players simply will not be able to put together a party to pass that battle, because you generally find that you need specific jobs to make up for the shortfalls that your less-than-optimal job brings.

The most successful people doing CoP missions are the ones with multiple high level jobs; nearly everyone on Midgardsormr who has Al'taieu access has at least 2 jobs at level 75, or at least 1 at 70+ and a second in the mid to high 50s or above, because while some jobs truly shine in many of the battles (SMN), NO job shines in all of them (SMN are horrible at Snoll Tzar, for instance).

As a rule of thumb, it's generally impossible to generate a pickup party for any CoP mission beyond 2-5 in Monarch Linn unless you have friends who are willing to backtrack and help you on missions they have already passed.


Icemage

Its cool to disagree, I actually agree with you on some things also.
I think Promathia missions were designed for people who have multiple jobs leveled. To help in various areas of the missions.

I just dont think promathia should be limited to SMN/BLM/RNG is all im saying.
I do think the people that succeed the most are those with multiple jobs leveled.
I did up to chapter 5 Promathia in pick up groups.
Since I havent done it with NA players outside of my LS, I noticed that when I team with heavy JP Pick ups . The leader will ask what jobs you have leveled and pick which he/she thinks will be best. Or when you send your tell, you tell him your jobs and levels.

For instance on Triel I have
1 Melee Job 30 Dragoon for bc30 fights
2 Mage jobs BLM42 WHM 40 for the 30-40 BC fights
Red Mage 71 for all BC fights
Summoner 75 for all BC fights.

So this way I can bring many things to the table.
FOr Promyvion Dem I went as Whm to help with curing.
For Mea I went As BLM.
For Hora I went as Summoner.
For the Ouryuu BC I went Red Mage to help Dispel his stonekin and help with Gravity and sleep.
For Another Ouryuu run I went as Summoner and used Garuda on Him.
For diablos first fight I went as Summoner and used Shiva while BLM nuked and Whm cured. and Ranger shot him.
For another Diabolos I went as Summoner and took 3 other summoner and overwhelmed him with Avatars.

So it just depends.

[Pounce]

Re: Isn't it sad they made this game so hard?

You're treating the game as if it required a phD to play. You don't need a phD. A lot of what you mention is common sense, and I'm sorry but if you can't grasp something that basic after a few sessions of gameplay, you're an idiot.

To play the game at the highest possible level of skill requires more effort for sure. But only a few people - even at Lv75 - reach that level of play. Most play just slightly above the minimum level required to be functional.