Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

[Raydeus]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Zelda makes my head hurt..........

My mind was innocent and I loved all the Zelda games..... but now, it is dark, and sinister, and scary.......

Now you know why they wont let Link regain his memories every time he is reborn.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Its still somewhat up in the air if Link is actually reincarnated at all. It seems somewhat the case with Zelda, Ghirahim and, Malladus and Vaati were after Zelda for a similar reasons, which apparently wasn't the Triforce at all, but a "power" only she possessed.

Skyward Sword spoilers

If Zelda was a reincarnation of Hylia each time out, it makes sense in these cases and doesn't in others, so I don't think it's 100%.

I think since Ganon is clearly aligned with Demise, he'd be able to sense Hylia yet Ganondorf its always after the Triforce and everything else is secondary. Demise wanted Hylia before the Triforce because is just a bastard of pure hate and wants all the old gods dead before anything else. I do have to say for such a being of absolute rage and hatred, Demise is awefully polite and respectful toward Link. Even patient enough to wait on Link before he tries to take over the world.

I also thought it was a nice touch that Ghirahim turned out to be a sword spirit akin to Fi.

I kind of wonder about what Fi and Ghirahim are references to. Their personalities are not unlike that of Data and Lore from Star Trek. Fi is more analytical and has difficulty appreciating human emotion though she eventually comes to understand it more like Data. Ghirahim, on the other hand, is gifted with speech, has emotions and while quite glib, he has a hard time keeping his emotions in check when he doesn't get what he wants which is a lot like more, he even procrastinates on his desire for murder like Lore.

[Raydeus]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

I don't know, it's kinda too much of a coincidence all the Links are not only called Link but always possess both the Triforce of Courage and the same-ish bond with the other characters in the series. And while regaining full memories may or may not happen at specific points in the eternal struggle Link is the only one who never has that chance.

Unless, Link was actually a name granted as a title for the current hero/chosen one to wield the <insert mythical sword or item> and save <insert area's name here>. In which case it would appear the Triforce of Courage not only chooses to possess disposable nameless heroes each time, but many of those times Zelda actually knows what's going on with the current "Link" and their disposable nature.

Either way it's not something I find very pleasant. <_<;



PS > In which case the name Link is completely literal and means exactly that, the current wielder (or destined to wield) the Triforce of Courage is a link to connect the current events to the future, or the past.

[Armando]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Link doesn't always wield the Triforce of Courage, though that was the trend from OoT to TP. In Zelda 1 the only two known Triforce pieces are Power and Wisdom, and Link is actually putting together Zelda's Triforce of Wisdom. In Zelda 2 the goal is to find the Triforce of Courage not to defeat Ganon (he's already dead,) but to wake Zelda from perpetual sleep. In A Link to the Past Ganon owns the entire Triforce, you want to kill him so you can claim it as your own. The Triforce didn't play any part in Link's Awakening (which can be removed from the timeline and nothing would change.)

Skyward Sword's Link...

...displays Courage, Wisdom and Power and gets to claim and use the entire Triforce.

I don't think the Triforce plays any part in the Oracles or Four Sword (Minish Cap/Four Sword/Four Sword Adventures) series, but I can't say for sure because I didn't play them.

I don't think it's the same Link reincarnating over and over again, but it doesn't really matter; they make this up as they go. Each Link has different reasons for wearing green and different origins. Skyward Sword's Link wore green because it's the Knight Academy uniform. OoT's Link wore green because he grew up with the Kokiri. WW's Link wore green because of a coming-of-age ceremony in remembrance of the Hero of Time. TP's Link is a descendant of the Hero of Time and was given the hero's clothes by the Light Spirits. There wasn't a particular reason in the older games.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

The FS subseries - at least MC and the first FS - only refer to a "golden power" and the Triforce never comes up nor is it seen.

[Raydeus]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Then I guess the question would be if it still influences Link's reappearance or if it's something else bringing him back over and over again. Otherwise it could be that Link himself is somewhat like Ganondorf and is coming back to life for reasons yet to be discovered.

The Link title influenced by the Triforce is my favorite theory so far though. If it really isn't the same Link in all games.

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

Now, this makes me wonder about the nature of the Triforce itself.

Dungeon-friendly fragmentation tendencies aside, from the stuff I've read about it it would appear the goddesses left it sealed away for the people with the capacity to look for it*. Well then, my question would be if it was meant to be controlled as a whole by a balanced being that embodied the power courage and wisdom to use it or not.

If it was then it makes sense that when reached by an unbalanced or not mighty enough being it would split and look for the most suitable subjects to hold it's pieces at the time. This is independent from it's Dragon Ball function of granting a wish to whomever touched it first after reuniting all the pieces, which doesn't require any trait or merit whatsoever besides being at the right place at the right time.

Because of this the Triforce would tend to scatter and hide again to wait after granting a wish, to see if the next person to reach it had the necessary attributes to wield it.


Or, the power granting and champion selection is just a means to get the Dragon Ball game going, and the Triforce was never meant to be had as a whole but instead was meant to grant wishes after the current game reached it's end and the winner claimed the price. Only to have the game starting again at a later time. This also independently from the side effects the Triforce's power would have over the realms.

Ok, now I'm dizzy. @_@



* Said goddesses were obviously retarded.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

The working theory on "reincarnations" in Zelda, based on SS

OK, with Zelda being the reincarnation of the goddess, Hylia, she gave up her godhood to become human and able to use the Triforce were she to find it. The old goddesses made the Triforce only to be wielded by mortals. Partway through the game, however, she needs to use her latent powers to maintain the seal of Demise in the past and to do so, she must sleep. So now she's unable to look for and obtain the Triforce.

Link's fate, arguably each Link, is to bye Zelda/Hylia's champion. To protect her from her powers being misused and obviously to protect the Triforce.

Ganondorf, in a sense, is the reincarnation of Demise, with the exception that the power of Demise was totally vanquished by Link in Skyward Sword. Ganondorf shares the kind of hatred, jealousy and avarice that Demise had, though this goes from greed and a lust for power to an eventual absolute hate for the gods.

Demise himself takes on many forms, but in his pure form is different to each person who looks upon him. In Link's case, Demise looks a very, very nightmarish and muscular version of Ganondorf. And his hair is literally fire. So they're foreshadowing.



This isn't to say, however, that Ganondorf isn't his own person or devoid of humanity. Remember, Demise does die and his power is purged within the Master Sword. It was just prophesied by Demise that someone that shared his brand of hatred would come along and plague Zelda and Link's descendents for all time. As time goes on, Ganondorf becomes more hateful and insane, This certainly was the case for TP's Ganondorf, he didn't even have time for pleasantries any more, but OOT Ganondorf did and WW Ganondorf seemed to actually show some distaste for harming children (until his hopes were dashed, anyway, then he was just out to murder anyone).

Hell, Ganondorf does have moments in Wind Waker where he seems to have a moral compass and regrets. He's still insane and evil, but he was humanized to an extent. This is, of course, before he just lets go to insanity and hatred again.

He just fucking lets go, man, and it was actually more awesome how they went about it than "I'm just hateful, grumpy and crazy" in TP.

But Demise is a little different.

Demise by contrast is just incredibly upfront about his hatred of anything he can't control. And patient. He is not insane at all, just straight up evil and enjoys it. Ghirahim is actually quite a bit the same, which gives them something that a lot of other video game villains just haven't had. Ghirahim actually comes off as a midpoint between Kefka and Sephiroth in some respects, except that he's not insane - and he also has no concept of personal space.

[Raydeus]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Hmmm...

That still leaves the question of Link's real identity, although Ganon/Ganondorf are very well defined by Demise, and Zelda is relatively defined by her past as Hylia.

But where did Link come from? What exactly is he? After all this time we never really know.
Was the Link from SS the first?

Because after watching this it really doesn't look like it, if anything it sounds like Link could've bonded with or been created by Hylia or even the goddesses even before the first war for the Triforce, before Demise made his army and Hylia created Skyloft. And chances are he was there with Hylia when she fought to defeat Demise in the battle after the creation of Skyloft.

And if the original Link was there (and was forgotten as usual) that opens quite a few possibilities for why things developed the way they did. Unless those questions are answered in SS that is.

[Armando]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Dungeon-friendly fragmentation tendencies aside, from the stuff I've read about it it would appear the goddesses left it sealed away for the people with the capacity to look for it*. Well then, my question would be if it was meant to be controlled as a whole by a balanced being that embodied the power courage and wisdom to use it or not.

More Skyward Sword spoilers

The Triforce can't be used by gods, like BBQ mentioned. Zelda/Hylia tells Link that she doesn't know for sure why the three Goddesses did it, but she suspects it's to give the people hope - to serve as a trump card. It's actually used as such in Skyward Sword - Link successfully gathers all 3 pieces and wishes for Demise's defeat, and they do destroy him. The problem is that Ghirahim took Zelda back in time to just after Demise's initial defeat and revives him in the past, since there's no chance of reviving him in the present any more.

Again, though, Nintendo just makes it up as they go. When they make a new game they start with the gameplay and figure out the plot later. The Triforce itself sort of evolved over time. In Zelda 1 and 2 the scope of their power was pretty ambiguous, all you know is that having them all means there's little hope of anyone stopping you from taking over the world. A Link to the Past is the first time it's mentioned that the Triforce resides in another dimension and that it has the power of granting the wish of whomever touches it. The fact that it splits up hasn't been come up with yet; the deal is that if you touch it, you're the "owner." Ganon was the first to get his hands on the whole thing, Link had to kill Ganon so the Triforce would be up for grabs and he could make his own wish. Ocarina of Time is the first time that they state the Triforce will split if the person who touches it doesn't have Power, Wisdom and Courage in harmony. Ganondorf touched it and got his wish, but the Triforce split afterwards. In Skyward Sword they introduced the notion that the Triforce can only be used by mortals, and that it was left in the care of the goddess Hylia.

On the subject of Demise, I don't remember anyone saying his appearance varies based on who sees him. The only thing I remember is that the seal Hylia put on him keeps him from regaining his true form, so he shows up as a giant monster.

EDIT:

Was the Link from SS the first?

Yes...

Skyward Sword is the earliest game in the chronology, and Hylia alone defeated Demise the first time (the other races helped fight Demise's minions.) However, she suffered tremendous injuries, and realized that the seal she put on Demise wouldn't hold forever - the next time Demise broke free, she wouldn't be able to stop him. She put in motion two plans: the first was to sacrifice her divinity and become mortal so that she could one day use the Triforce. She reincarnated as the Zelda from Skyward Sword, though she initially had no memories of her life as Hylia. Her second plan was to create the Goddess Sword (which becomes the Master Sword) and the spirit Fi, which will guide Hylia's chosen hero on a quest to develop Courage, Wisdom and Power, retrieve the Triforce and wish for Demise's defeat. Link was Hylia's chosen hero. Zelda never got to use the Triforce, but Link did.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

SS makes no mention of a prior incarnation of Link.

SS spoilers

It was mentioned that Hylia used a great deal of power to seal Demise away and that it greatly weakened her. She had a two-part plan.

First was the creation of Fi the Goddess Sword, which Hylia's eventual chosen hero would forge into the Master Sword with Fi's aid so he could prove his worth to the gods and become Hylia's champion. The second part of her plan was to take human form so that she could use the Triforce, were she to obtain it. It seems over time or numerous prior incarnations that Hylia became somewhat of an amnesiac and in becoming Link's closest friend and growing up with him as Zelda, she wished for him to be her champion due to her affection for him and because she new no one else with the courage, wisdom or power to do so.

That aside, did anyone else like Groose? He seems too fun of a character not to have his own game of some kind. He grew as a person, but somehow managed change his ego to good humor and become quite a handy guy to have around. I liked him a whole lot more than Tingle.

---------- Post added at 04:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 AM ----------

More Skyward Sword spoilers

On the subject of Demise, I don't remember anyone saying his appearance varies based on who sees him. The only thing I remember is that the seal Hylia put on him keeps him from regaining his true form, so he shows up as a giant monster.

Fi told me when I requested an analysis in battle.

[Rostum]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

Damn it, I need to hurry up and finish this game so I can check all these spoilers. XD

[Raydeus]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

SS makes no mention of a prior incarnation of Link.

So...

In the end Zeldalia chose him in SS because she got the hots for him? XD

Then I'd be surprised if most (all) incarnations weren't the same Link. Considering it's something very Saint Seiya-ish and often seen in Anime/manga.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

So...

In the end Zeldalia chose him in SS because she got the hots for him? XD

Then I'd be surprised if most (all) incarnations weren't the same Link. Considering it's something very Saint Seiya-ish and often seen in Anime/manga.

maybe/maybe not

Some Zeldas have displayed a friendship or familiarity with various Links in the Past, but there's also been games where they've been connected merely by circumstance.

In Twilight Princess, Zelda was never more distant, but she does bear that sense of guilt SS and OOT Zelda express in meddling with greater power than they understood. If the Hylia reincarnation sticks, then this is a mistake she keeps on making, be it becoming mortal to obtain the Triforce and failing, meddling with time or making life harder for Princess Midna.

Zelda and Link have a very close friendship and this time out, unlike previous games, there is a romantic but noble element to it in Link's actions. In other words, hugz but no kissin'.

One of the nice touches within the plot was that when Zelda is cast down to earth, Impa later finds her - her role having a particular fate too, which is to serve as another protector for Zelda as appointed by the goddess, but this is clearly not OOT Impa though she is Shiekah- and helps her awaken her powers and memories as a goddess. When the credits roll, you get to see small glimpses into the journey Zelda and Impa were on as Link seached for Zelda.

[Raydeus]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

maybe/maybe not

Some Zeldas have displayed a friendship or familiarity with various Links in the Past, but there's also been games where they've been connected merely by circumstance.

In Twilight Princess, Zelda was never more distant, but she does bear that sense of guilt SS and OOT Zelda express in meddling with greater power than they understood. If the Hylia reincarnation sticks, then this is a mistake she keeps on making, be it becoming mortal to obtain the Triforce and failing, meddling with time or making life harder for Princess Midna.

Zelda and Link have a very close friendship and this time out, unlike previous games, there is a romantic but noble element to it in Link's actions. In other words, hugz but no kissin'.

One of the nice touches within the plot was that when Zelda is cast down to earth, Impa later finds her - her role having a particular fate too, which is to serve as another protector for Zelda as appointed by the goddess, but this is clearly not OOT Impa though she is Shiekah- and helps her awaken her powers and memories as a goddess. When the credits roll, you get to see small glimpses into the journey Zelda and Impa were on as Link seached for Zelda.

Yep

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

It may take many forms but it's the main point about this Japanese approach to having a bond or a link with someone else that transcends time. So they will inevitably bump into each other and be connected even if it isn't romantic each time. Saint Seiya has the same kind of relationship between Pegasus and Athena, they are their own person each time they are born, but their soul is the same, as is their connection. Whether that will evolve into love or something else is entirely dependent on who they are each time and their circumstances.

[Armando]

Re: Nintendo finally reveals the Zelda Timeline in Hyrule Historia collectors book.

I thought Groose sucked at first, but he turned out to be a pretty cool guy halfway through. Much better than Tingle for sure.

As to why Zelda chose Link...

...she mentions that she knew Link would throw himself headfirst into danger to save her. In other words, she knew that if she kept herself out of his reach, she could put him through anything and he wouldn't back out. She openly admits to using Link so she could turn him into the hero, and apologizes for it when you finally find her.

Impa was in on it, she reminded Zelda that she mustn't go to Link one of the times he caught up to them, because of what they had "previously discussed."