So... Starcraft 2?

[Ufgt]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Psi Storm sucks? Are you serious? High Templars wreck bioballs. Feedback the medvacs and storm the marines. So simple. It's not like the protoss player won't have Zealots stopping the ball from advancing so the HTs can get in position. And once out of juice, archons wreck bioballs too.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I feel like we did this a couple pages back. Saying "you can detect cloak so you can counter it" is great and all, if you actually have it. Every photon cannon a toss player builds is 1 less gateway made to produce units. It's easy to say "you can't go colossi vs zerg because ultralisks own them", but it's not true because Zerg doesn't start the game with that tech. Likewise, Terran doesn't automatically have missile turrets everywhere, toss doesn't automatically have photon cannons everywhere, and observers cannot keep up with banshees (and I've tried many a time).

Plus, you can EMP void ray's shields and kill them quick. That doesn't keep them from being as devastating as banshees.

I usually go 3 gate > robo > observer for openings. By the time that observer gets to their base, they already have 2 starports with tech labs, starting on banshees. By this time, I likely have an expansion. This means, in addition to that observer who's on the wrong side of the map, I need 2 more observers and a bunch of stalkers -- enough to protect both of my mineral lines. This causes a lot of paranoia, which in turn hurts my ability to attack since I know the backstab is coming. I can't dedicate 8-12 stalkers to protection forever, so I have to build my Forge (which, admittedly, I need to start remembering to build earlier) and then build 4-5 cannons. All told, 650-800 minerals worth of investment, and they don't warp in instantly. I still need to be chrono boosting those observers and sending them to the right spots with stalkers holding down the fort 'til the cannons warp in. That's a LOT of infrastructure management, don't you think?

--

Regardless, Void Rays just got nerfed pretty hard. Medivacs got some too, so it seems they agreed with you, Dak. I'm glad they didn't really do much to marine/marauder though. They just hurt the mobility of medivacs slightly.

Also, if your opponent is scanning to kill your creep tumors, that's a win for Zerg.

I've yet to see how much of an impact the Void Ray nerf has had. If I remember correctly, they have three charges, so making the first one stronger, the second one weaker, and leave the third alone, doesn't do much. If they do only have two charges, then I don't really see this as being a fix at all. Now they're a whole lot more dangerous before they've completely charged, at which point they're still pretty dangerous.

I think the nerf to Medivac speed is only to slow down mineral line drops. They used to be faster than the bioballs they were meant to heal, so now they'll probably have an easier time keeping pace.


How many races actually have attainable counters for Marines? Zerg is supposed to have Ultralisks, but they're the last unit they could possibly tech to, have horrible pathing and AI, and are basically giant bullet sponges. Can't forget Banelings, which are awesome, if they work. They usually don't work. Protoss have Collossi, and supposedly High Templar, both of which aren't terribly difficult to tech to. Collossi are pretty decent at melting bioballs, but grabbing chunks of the ball and splitting them off, stimming the groups not under fire, will wreck Collossi. High Templar are useless. Psi Storm sucks. What does Terran have? They used to have Siege Tanks, but, for some reason, they nerfed their damage against light units. They're pretty useless against bioballs, now.

So nobody really has an awesome counter for Marines. Collossi can leap to a great start with Thermal Lances and high ground, melting a few swaths of them before they can react. Banelings are also pretty great melting swaths of Marines, but they're slow even with the speed upgrade. Stim the Marines and the Banelings will never catch up. Burrow for the advantage, but that's a one time thing. Again, these are good counters, but what's preventing them from being great is that they're more costly to maintain than Marines. Collossi, obviously, require a lot of resources to tech to and aren't cheap. Banelings are much cheaper, but they're suicide units so you're pretty much gambling with every one you make. On the other hand, saturate your crystals and one vespene geyser and you're well on your way to fielding an immense army of Marines, capable of tearing apart pretty much every unit in the game. That's not really fair.

Not to even mention the amount of micro require to counter Marines...

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Oh snap SC2 does have cheats programmed well shit lol.

Honestly, I never even thought to look. It certainly explains why you can use the chat feature in single player.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

VRs and Banshees aren't on the same level. Banshees can only attack ground and can cloak, which isn't that great when Protoss bases are filled with detectors, Terran can scan whenever/wherever/whatever, and all Zerg has to do is morph an Overlord into an Overseer, which the Banshee could do nothing about. Void Rays, on the hand, are completely counterable until they begin charging up, at which point nothing can counter them and nothing can stop them until they're done destroying your base and are no longer charged. Definitely not on the same level.

Burrow is useless against Terran, and creep isn't that great either. Scan makes both of those pretty pointless. Once they find the first tumor they can kill it and put an end to the whole thing, and if you burrow it's just a quick scan before you're dead. Sure, creep helps out a whole lot for movement speed, but it's still not that great, although I spread it anyways.

I feel like we did this a couple pages back. Saying "you can detect cloak so you can counter it" is great and all, if you actually have it. Every photon cannon a toss player builds is 1 less gateway made to produce units. It's easy to say "you can't go colossi vs zerg because ultralisks own them", but it's not true because Zerg doesn't start the game with that tech. Likewise, Terran doesn't automatically have missile turrets everywhere, toss doesn't automatically have photon cannons everywhere, and observers cannot keep up with banshees (and I've tried many a time).

Plus, you can EMP void ray's shields and kill them quick. That doesn't keep them from being as devastating as banshees.

I usually go 3 gate > robo > observer for openings. By the time that observer gets to their base, they already have 2 starports with tech labs, starting on banshees. By this time, I likely have an expansion. This means, in addition to that observer who's on the wrong side of the map, I need 2 more observers and a bunch of stalkers -- enough to protect both of my mineral lines. This causes a lot of paranoia, which in turn hurts my ability to attack since I know the backstab is coming. I can't dedicate 8-12 stalkers to protection forever, so I have to build my Forge (which, admittedly, I need to start remembering to build earlier) and then build 4-5 cannons. All told, 650-800 minerals worth of investment, and they don't warp in instantly. I still need to be chrono boosting those observers and sending them to the right spots with stalkers holding down the fort 'til the cannons warp in. That's a LOT of infrastructure management, don't you think?

--

Regardless, Void Rays just got nerfed pretty hard. Medivacs got some too, so it seems they agreed with you, Dak. I'm glad they didn't really do much to marine/marauder though. They just hurt the mobility of medivacs slightly.

Also, if your opponent is scanning to kill your creep tumors, that's a win for Zerg.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

MMM is fine. More stuff for me to psi storm/feedback. Void Rays are just as bad as banshees. They both have retarded DPS and are relatively easy to keep alive. I really don't think VRs are banshees are overpowered, but they sure are obnoxious. If they nerf VRs, they'd better nerf banshees (I'd increase their build time slightly and that's about it).

In that same article, Browder pasted win rate statistics. TvZ is actually Zerg-favored in most leagues, including Diamond. He says they feel the win rates don't reflect the fun-factor. I can understand that, but I can also understand that Zerg players still aren't spreading creep and researching burrow. Both of which should be integral vs Terran.

VRs and Banshees aren't on the same level. Banshees can only attack ground and can cloak, which isn't that great when Protoss bases are filled with detectors, Terran can scan whenever/wherever/whatever, and all Zerg has to do is morph an Overlord into an Overseer, which the Banshee could do nothing about. Void Rays, on the hand, are completely counterable until they begin charging up, at which point nothing can counter them and nothing can stop them until they're done destroying your base and are no longer charged. Definitely not on the same level.

Burrow is useless against Terran, and creep isn't that great either. Scan makes both of those pretty pointless. Once they find the first tumor they can kill it and put an end to the whole thing, and if you burrow it's just a quick scan before you're dead. Sure, creep helps out a whole lot for movement speed, but it's still not that great, although I spread it anyways.

[Taskmage]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

If someone wants to cheat in single player or vs the AI, they should use the dozens of cheat codes that are built into the game. Downloading hacks to do the same thing is not just asking for it, it's pointless. My guess is that the people who claim to be getting banned for cheating offline actually used their cheats in a custom melee, where you're a single player vs an AI but the game is hosted and run from the battle.net servers.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

He does still have a point though in that fit of rage - That's pretty asinine to ban someone for cheating offline and vs the AI.

Be that as it may, the point remains Blizzard isn't banning for offline cheating at all. So he comes off extremely paranoid for insisting it should never occur when its not happening.

They just ban the people that do it online, which is the right thing to do, and yet you're still going to have plenty who will play dumb or innocent and try to make Blizzard the bad guys.

If you cheated, take it like grown-up and bow out gracefully. If you didn't and still got banned, same deal. Every ToS and EULA out there states that they have the right to ban you for any reason they see fit. If it happened to me, I'm not going to bitch. It would suck, but at least people are getting banned and if they got me by mistake at least they're getting more legit ones along the way. I'll just buy a new copy and start anew if I liked the game that much.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

He does still have a point though in that fit of rage - That's pretty asinine to ban someone for cheating offline and vs the AI.

Is it hurting anyone? No. And he's certainly not getting better @ the game by cheating. Shit, there were cheats programmed into SC1!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

I just saw this epic moment of spazz on Destructoid regarding Blizzard dispelling the rumor that people were getting banned for cheating in the offline mode:

Blizzard didn't ban over single-player StarCraft II cheats - Destructoid.com

I don't care what anyone says. It is NOT okay to ban someone from playing online when it was an offline or single-player match. THEY GAVE YOU $60 or more (different reigons/countries) and the player deserves Blizzard's respect. I don't care about ToS's, I don't care about "cheaters deserve to be banned", I don't care about them possibly going to cheat on multiplayer. Yes, ban them the moment they touch an online game with other people, but it better not be a second before that. Yes, banning is a great way to uphold a great online community in games and it goes a long way for the reputability of a game when you hear that you won't have to deal with cheaters if you buy it. But if I buy your damn game, its should be my RIGHT to do whatever I want with it when its just me and the computer. I'm tired of this whole "games/films/music/media are/is a privileges" and "you're basically just renting the game out" deal. If that's where we're going, well I feel really sorry for the industry.

I know nothing about Starcraft, however, if this guy is so adamant about his right to cheat offline, then how am I supposed to seriously believe he could competently play a game this involved without the cheats and trainers to help him? Chances are with a game like this that if you're cheating offline, you're also cheating online.

The level of overreaction here - particularly given Blizzard said they were only banning online offenders - actually just confirms this person would be cheating either way.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Nothing they do is knee-jerk, it takes forver for them to kick an update out the door.

MarroW beats Idra (one of the best Z players and a complete asshole who likes to scream imbalance), along with every other Z in that tournament at the end of August with 5 rax reapers. Sure, it'll be like half a year 'til it's implemented. But like a week after that tournament, they nerfed reaper build time. And here we are, 40 days later, with the announcement that they're not done yet. That's knee-jerk.

They need to nerf Void Rays and Marines/Marauders/Medivacs.

MMM is fine. More stuff for me to psi storm/feedback. Void Rays are just as bad as banshees. They both have retarded DPS and are relatively easy to keep alive. I really don't think VRs are banshees are overpowered, but they sure are obnoxious. If they nerf VRs, they'd better nerf banshees (I'd increase their build time slightly and that's about it).

---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ----------

^ Was Zerg really that unbalanced? I hear a lot of people crying about it yet at the top levels Z players seem to do just fine.

In that same article, Browder pasted win rate statistics. TvZ is actually Zerg-favored in most leagues, including Diamond. He says they feel the win rates don't reflect the fun-factor. I can understand that, but I can also understand that Zerg players still aren't spreading creep and researching burrow. Both of which should be integral vs Terran.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Bio Ball is fine. It's only really a problem vs Zerg, and it looks like that's being addressed somewhat:


• We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.

• Fungal Growth will now prevent Blink, which will give zerg a way to stop endlessly Blinking stalkers which can be very challenging to deal with in large numbers.

• The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

• The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.

• We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don't expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.


^ Was Zerg really that unbalanced? I hear a lot of people crying about it yet at the top levels Z players seem to do just fine.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

knee-jerk changes

Nothing they do is knee-jerk, it takes forver for them to kick an update out the door. On top of that, it's always for the wrong things. Reapers are a threat because they can easily destroy economy lines and buildings, so they should focus on their attack speed, or attack power. In the time it takes to reach critical mass you could have a few upgrades for them, as well, meaning even more damage. Defending against them is easy, though, all it takes it armored units, which everybody has access to when Terran have access to Reapers.

They need to nerf Void Rays and Marines/Marauders/Medivacs.

[Lmnop]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

They nerfed T last patch. Even +5 seconds of Reaper build time and Z players are fighting off 5 rax reapers all the time. But Blizzard isn't satisfied to let this play out as it should*, so they're making 4 changes all designed to make the reaper weaker vs Z.

-increased roach range, so it's harder to kite them off the creep with reapers (where your only real protection is roaches and queens)
-increased zerg building health -- because blowing up Z tech is the only real use for the reaper building attack.
-delayed reaper speed upgrade so there's no possible way reapers can be good until tier 2 units are fielded.
-retarded supply depot > barracks gimmick to eliminate all terran cheese. This one wouldn't bother me too bad if they put stuff in to slow down the other races early on. 10-pooling Z is really strong vs toss right now and barely sets their economy back.

It bothers me that all these knee-jerk changes are being proposed by blizzard, when all Z fans are crying despite their 51% win rate (vs T) in diamond league.

*Dunno if any of you know of a guy named Bisu, but I believe he was responsible for bringing protoss out of a 1-2 year slump vs Zerg in brood war. Between his Bisu build and the sair/reaver build that came out of it, toss went from losing all their games vs Z to winning them all. It took months for Z pros to find a way to counter these strats and get their footing. Blizzard didn't just nerf toss for finally winning a game.

Those early tourneys where protoss started utilizing corsairs heavily looked a lot like these recent tournaments where T has just 5-rax reaper'd every Z in play.

[DakAttack]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Anyone see the update preview? Blizzard fails.

Their solution to PvT being lopsided towards toss? Nerf Terran. Great work there Bliz, great work...

Terran needs nerfs, but not in any way they're planning to. Reapers aren't that serious; just don't throw light armor units at them and you're fine.

[Malacite]

Re: So... Starcraft 2?

Anyone see the update preview? Blizzard fails.

Their solution to PvT being lopsided towards toss? Nerf Terran. Great work there Bliz, great work...