Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

[Nazo]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

I think FFX-2 is probably the battle system it's most similar to. The Optima system is kinda similar to the job system from that, except you're changing everyone's job at the same time instead of individually. Chaining attacks is pretty essential to victory, though they don't have to be in as quick succession as in FFX-2.

[Feba]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Yes but in Kingdom hearts you can also move around and are free to block/dodge attacks, it'd not turn-based combat.

Final Fantasy hasn't been turn-based in a long time. The closest we've seen in FFX, and that's pushing it considering that if you want to succeed at endgame you have to have your characters attacking dozens of times for each enemy attack. And why are stupid, uncontrollable AI partners acceptable in real time combat, which is more sensitive?

[Armando]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

And why are stupid, uncontrollable AI partners acceptable in real time combat, which is more sensitive?

Mostly because you can win whether they're backing your ass up or not. If they are, that's great, if they're not, no biggie.

[Feba]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Mostly because you can win whether they're backing your ass up or not.

And why can't the same apply to an RPG as to an Action-RPG?

[Mhurron]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Chrono Cross did practically the same thing by letting you run away from any and all battles at any time, bosses included. Losing? No problem, run away. But you liked Chrono Cross. Why the inconsistency?

CC didn't pat you on the head and say 'awww, you died, here, let me turn that back for you, there you go child.' CC had death, if you lost a battle, you lost. This is removing all penalty, every battle pretty much becomes something you can not loose and just a giant waste of time then. There is more risk of loosing in tic-tac-toe then in this.

Also, CC was quite easy once you got enough magic, and it didn't take long to get enough, I admit that. I kept playing because the story was enough to make me want to know what was going on. Maybe XIII will as well, we'll find out, but the battle system on easy is not something I'm looking forward to.

[Armando]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

CC had death, if you lost a battle, you lost.

Sure, but the boss would have to surprise you and cause a wipe very suddenly for you not to be able to bail out as soon as you start to lose, so it's almost as risk free.

And why can't the same apply to an RPG as to an Action-RPG?

In action games, you can usually make up for any disadvantage by playing better unless the boss has attacks that are truly unavoidable. Doesn't matter how uphill the battle is, they can't kill you if you don't let them touch you. In RPGs, dexterity/skill generally isn't a factor, and you usually don't have a say in whether or not you're going to get hit, any more than I can have a chess piece avoid capture. Decision making can only go so far to make up for a difference in power between your party and the enemy. If you don't have enough power, you'll lose no matter what you do; poor party members can directly sabotage your fight in an RPG; it's harder for poor party members to directly cause your failure in an action game.

[Firewind]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

RPGs are boring as fuck to watch because unless you get cutscenes left and right between battles, you, as the spectator, will be sittin there watchin someone fight random mobs for who knows how long until the next important part of the story/boss battle.

Sports/racing/fighting/etc games are fun to watch because like Firewind said, they are already spectator sports in RL.

That and it's actually entertaining when you see someone mess up in a sports/racing/fighting/whatever game. In an RPG if someone screws up you tend to have to sit through a lot of cutscenes or dialogue multiple times to get back to the battle they were on.

And why are stupid, uncontrollable AI partners acceptable in real time combat, which is more sensitive?

There is a pause button when you are in real time combat games that lets you take all the time you want to set up positioning, attacks, spells etc for each party member so you never have to touch the gambit/tactics/whatever system. Learn to love it .

Actually on a lot of games that use "real time" combat (pretty much all of them except Elder Scrolls) pausing is a requirement at endgame because you can never rely on the AI to do it for you. A lot of the Elite Marks on FFXII will require this (since you will need to control the tank to kite them) so you can keep the AI party members focused on the mob.

[Malacite]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

That and it's actually entertaining when you see someone mess up in a sports/racing/fighting/whatever game. In an RPG if someone screws up you tend to have to sit through a lot of cutscenes or dialogue multiple times to get back to the battle they were on.

I think Xenosaga held the record for being the worst for this. I remember there was this 1 part inside the giant Gnosis where you had a save point right before an elevator and as soon as you went in it triggered this long ass (Like 5~10 minutes) CS followed by a rather difficult boss fight...

[Coinspinner]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

CC didn't pat you on the head and say 'awww, you died, here, let me turn that back for you, there you go child.' CC had death, if you lost a battle, you lost. This is removing all penalty, every battle pretty much becomes something you can not loose and just a giant waste of time then. There is more risk of loosing in tic-tac-toe then in this.

You can lose a fight. The game just doesn't kick you back as far afterward. It has a masochist option. You sayin' that more options is worse? (Or just "an" option in this case.)

This game dropped resource attrition too. So it's not as though you could do better on the second run and have more resources when you get to whatever killed you. It's made such that each encoutner is it's own isolated challenge (though I don't know if they are actually challenging or what, but word seems to be "yes".)

I don't think prior FF games were good at the "risk" thing either. You lose a little time, retracing your steps. You lose a little exp and gold, which is usually not important and you'll get it all back anyway. Maybe you'd lose a rare drop, but that would be an ultra rare occurrence. FF13 is not an MMO either, where you'd want to create and preserve the scarcity of items. Nor a roguelike where days or months of play might be lost because you forgot to activate your cloak of defending before turning a corner. It's a good direction for this series IMO, since it removes elements that have been vestigial for over 10 years.

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

I think Xenosaga held the record for being the worst for this. I remember there was this 1 part inside the giant Gnosis where you had a save point right before an elevator and as soon as you went in it triggered this long ass (Like 5~10 minutes) CS followed by a rather difficult boss fight...

Xenosaga as a whole was just completely unbalanced. You'd go through an hour of cutscenes then walk around shooting things in sparse environments for 6 hours and then you'd have another hour of cutscenes. At least for the most part in Final Fantasy you get a cutscene every hour or so, and these cutscenes are much shorter in length.

Don't get me wrong though, I still love Xenosaga.

As for the older Final Fantasies, I felt pretty pissed whenever I died in FFI and had to take the time to run through an entire cave again, but that's where our punishment came from: time spent. To me, having to repeat a battle over and over takes out the tedium of having to run to that specific battle and instead focuses the punishment on time spent replaying the battle. I've had a few friends who have gotten to the Seymour battle on top of Mt. Gagazet and literally stopped playing the game there because they had to watch his transformation scene every time they tried the battle. This "retry battle" option cuts out the crap and is a HUGE leap forward for the series.

[Malacite]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

That was what I liked about Xenosaga actually, that there was so much story content ^^

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

That was what I liked about Xenosaga actually, that there was so much story content ^^

Oh I loved the story too. Actually I'm one of the (probably) few people who would love to watch a Xenosaga movie made with just the cutscenes. So my issue wasn't with the cutscenes but instead was with running through those bland environments for hours on end, then seeing a long cutscene. I think they could've split up a lot of the cutscenes and inserted them as you ran along in order to improve the pacing.

Back on topic: I really really really hope they release some of this content as DLC. I will buy all of it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Nor a roguelike where days or months of play might be lost because you forgot to activate your cloak of defending before turning a corner. It's a good direction for this series IMO, since it removes elements that have been vestigial for over 10 years.

Citing roguelikes and then saying its OK for Final Fantasy to get away with eliminating just a tiny bit of retread is just a little weird to me. However long the length between the boss fight and where I last saved, I have an opportunity to go over that fight in my head and observe what skills I have and what I might need to do better.

It also might just be a sign you need a little break from the game and to come back to it later. Allowing you to jump right back in allows no time for such refection and ecourages you to keep trying rather that take what might be a needed break. I don't think its a smart or healthy design option.

[Armando]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Allowing you to jump right back in allows no time for such refection and ecourages you to keep trying rather that take what might be a needed break.

Except nobody's forcing you. If the boss fight is just plain hard and you're not losing due to faulty strategy I appreciate the option to save time. Cutting off that 5 minute period of restarting from the last save, walking to the boss and skipping the dialogue isn't going to have an adverse effect on my health. If I need a break I'll just get up and take it.

[Cheezeman3000]

Re: Square Enix cut a game's worth of content from Final Fantasy XIII

Except nobody's forcing you. If the boss fight is just plain hard and you're not losing due to faulty strategy I appreciate the option to save time. Cutting off that 5 minute period of restarting from the last save, walking to the boss and skipping the dialogue isn't going to have an adverse effect on my health. If I need a break I'll just get up and take it.

Exactly. In reality it's helping people's health by saving them the time it would take to get to that battle. If I'm stuck on a boss or something I will keep replaying until I beat it, and having the ability to just redo a battle will save me a BUNCH of time in real life.