Vanguard Online.

[DakAttack]

Re: Vanguard Online.

That's a good shot, but I see too much Everquest art style involved. It looks so bland, but shiny nonetheless.

So has anybody played it?

[Manatra]

Re: Vanguard Online.

Looks nice, but vaguely reminiscent of World of Warcraft, artistically.

That's because both games get their inspiration in high fantasy.

[little ninja]

Re: Vanguard Online.

Looks nice, but vaguely reminiscent of World of Warcraft, artistically. The job system reminds me muchly of Everquest (which, while not totally bad, has been perennially plagued by balance issues). I suspect, given the number of classes that have been held from release, that they are having similar issues with game balance, which is never a good sign.
MMORPGs are sort of weird animals. They mutate and adapt over time. Sometimes for the better (Anarchy Online)... sometimes for the worse (Star Wars Galaxies). It all depends on the skill level of the designers and developers. Unfortunately, if this really is the team that put together Everquest, I don't hold out a whole lot of hope to see a balanced gaming environment for quite some time.
Icemage

I think all MMO's go thru balancing problems on jobs. IF its not the Devs making them to powerful or to weak. Its the player base flooding to the job. To that come to mind are Ninja in FFXI, an Hunter in WoW.

Even though they are the original EQ peeps. You cant hold their old problems on a new game. Maybe they are more prepared to deal with isssues they at one time wernt.

[Jei]

Re: Vanguard Online.

I really liked their stance about no RMT. A while ago their dev team even talked in public that IGE sent agents to make a deal with them and they turned it down. I don't think any other online game developers ever reveal about that.

Artisticly, I think it's looking better than EQ2. Can't say much but I really want to see more. EQ2 uses really hi res models but with very little artistic touch.... But vanguard's SS show that at least they are controlling the color pallette and put more effort into texture works. The over all environment looks good... the grass look good... it's only the tree tho that look very crisp and clean. Too clean really. Might look better if there's a drop shadow... I don't know.

Looks to be the same universe as WoW, but, like a realistic version of WoW.

Now, does anyone have screenshots of more environments?

[Katashi Takishiro]

Re: Vanguard Online.

According to my guild formed for VSoH playing since Beta 2, they're crazy if they launch this game end of Jan. The servers are extremely laggy, and crash on occassion, there are massive empty areas, empty houses, empty dungeons, etc. Tons of quests don't work, like the NPC has actually disappeared, etc. {Its not ready for launch...}

The game is however amazing and I look forward to playing it as my next MMO for yrs to come, but I will not start until later this year when all these issues are resolved, and they have truely completed building the game world! I'm building a new DX10/Vista PC currently, but it won't be done until late summer/early fall! Very expensive...

[Jei]

Re: Vanguard Online.

Being part of the buggy world is actually some fun experience you know. By the time all bugs are fixed, you'll be up there on top already too.

I've been through the days of sliding around sitting in WoW. It's hella fun when you think back to it.

[Jei]

Re: Vanguard Online.

why is Vanguard part of Sony's website btw?

http://vanguard.station.sony.com/

[Lmnop]

Re: Vanguard Online.

I haven't been very successful in digging up info about the game (I'm also very lazy; I didn't try hard). I see the classes, but I'm interested in character growth.

It can't really be: choose race -> based on race, certain classes are available -> level up and gain new abilities... can it? Like classic D&D but unable to even multi-class? Or even the horrendously overdone "skill tree?" You know, Diablo 2 style, with hundreds of variations that came later.

-I don't think the universe needs another bland system for upgrading your character (Level up for better stats, gain new abilities. Rely on "magical equipment" to really make your character shine).

-I don't think the universe needs another Medieval MMOG. I'm still pissed at S-E for incorporating something so cliche as "Elvaan." The thinly disguised name just makes it worse.

If they're serious about this game, it needs a twist.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Vanguard Online.

why is Vanguard part of Sony's website btw?
http://vanguard.station.sony.com/

SOE is publishing the game iirc

[Karinya]

Re: Vanguard Online.

I haven't been very successful in digging up info about the game (I'm also very lazy; I didn't try hard). I see the classes, but I'm interested in character growth.
It can't really be: choose race -> based on race, certain classes are available -> level up and gain new abilities... can it? Like classic D&D but unable to even multi-class? Or even the horrendously overdone "skill tree?" You know, Diablo 2 style, with hundreds of variations that came later.

Well, there may be a DAoC-style skill system too (you get a pool of skill points and can't cap every skill at once), but aside from that, yeah. One race that never changes and one class that never changes.

-I don't think the universe needs another bland system for upgrading your character (Level up for better stats, gain new abilities. Rely on "magical equipment" to really make your character shine).
-I don't think the universe needs another Medieval MMOG. I'm still pissed at S-E for incorporating something so cliche as "Elvaan." The thinly disguised name just makes it worse.
If they're serious about this game, it needs a twist.

Well, I tend to agree, but rigid class-based systems have the advantage of being easier to balance - you don't have to worry that someone will invent a combo and use it in a way you never thought of (Utsusemi + Provoke, anyone)? A class is what it is and players can't really make it anything else no matter how hard they try. This may be frustrating for some players who want to make their character stand out, but it saves the developers a lot of headaches.

Their philosophy also reveals that the game will be very item-dominated, which I'm strongly against. Also, combining that with the lack of "no drop"/ex items and instead using WoW's bind-on-equip system for *everything* says to me that they will be IGE's bitch within weeks, however noble their intentions (which are pretty much the same as everyone else's intentions on paper anyway, and you know how successful SE and Blizzard have been at keeping them out).

Their attempts to combat the devaluation of gear are misguided too: cheaper gear makes the game more open to newbies. Anyone can afford a Jaridah Peti and that's a *good* thing - it allows them to perform up to a useful standard even if they don't have millions of gil or a ton of raid drops. Gear-dominated games are often hostile to newbies for exactly this reason and keeping old gear from dropping in price will only worsen the problem. In order for a MMO to be successful it needs to not only have something to remain interesting to veterans, but also to continue to attract new players without making them feel that they will be screwed just because they're new.

I'm also disappointed by their approach to travel: they state that they don't intend to allow a lot of teleporting because it's fun to discover and explore new areas. Has it somehow escaped their notice that 99% of travel in MMORPGs is travel to *old* areas that you've already been to several times, if not dozens of times? I agree that exploring new areas is fun (and that's why a lot of games already have "must get there the hard way first" requirements on teleports, including FFXI), but travel issues are not generally about new areas. They're about getting from your home point to your exp camp or raid dungeon and back again - and in a game that may not even have the equivalent of Warp, that could be a real pain in the ass. (To say nothing about finding a place to sell your loot without globally-linked auction houses...)

And that's not even counting how much *more* irritating the same travel issues become when you go through them on your second, third or fourth character, which a rigid class system pretty much forces everyone to have unless they like doing the same thing all the time.


Overall I think it will basically be EQ with better graphics, and anyone who prefers FFXI to WoW will prefer it to Vanguard too, as much if not more so. (This may be briefly offset by the newness of Vanguard, but newness doesn't really help a MMO much. Unlike most conventional games, if a player isn't still playing your MMO after 6 months, they probably consider it a failure.) The more I looked at it the less I liked what I saw, and the game isn't even out yet (meaning I'm not even including bugs and balance problems, which it will probably have since every other MMO does).

[Lmnop]

Re: Vanguard Online.

It's decided:

I hate it.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Vanguard Online.

Looks nice, but vaguely reminiscent of World of Warcraft, artistically. The job system reminds me muchly of Everquest (which, while not totally bad, has been perennially plagued by balance issues). I suspect, given the number of classes that have been held from release, that they are having similar issues with game balance, which is never a good sign.
MMORPGs are sort of weird animals. They mutate and adapt over time. Sometimes for the better (Anarchy Online)... sometimes for the worse (Star Wars Galaxies). It all depends on the skill level of the designers and developers. Unfortunately, if this really is the team that put together Everquest, I don't hold out a whole lot of hope to see a balanced gaming environment for quite some time.
Icemage

Regarding balance, it's been in Vanguard's FAQ since very early on that they don't want perfect class balance. The archetype system was created to balance classes in fulfilling a specific role but otherwise letting the chips fall where they may. (I have no idea if that's held true to date.)

why is Vanguard part of Sony's website btw?
http://vanguard.station.sony.com/

Sony Online Entertainment is co-publishing and handling technical support (not in-game, more like "I lost my CD, help!" support.)

I'm also disappointed by their approach to travel: they state that they don't intend to allow a lot of teleporting because it's fun to discover and explore new areas. Has it somehow escaped their notice that 99% of travel in MMORPGs is travel to *old* areas that you've already been to several times, if not dozens of times? I agree that exploring new areas is fun (and that's why a lot of games already have "must get there the hard way first" requirements on teleports, including FFXI), but travel issues are not generally about new areas. They're about getting from your home point to your exp camp or raid dungeon and back again - and in a game that may not even have the equivalent of Warp, that could be a real pain in the ass. (To say nothing about finding a place to sell your loot without globally-linked auction houses...)

I seem to remember all my characters, even my warrior, starting with the equivalent of FFXI's "Warp". Either way, the game was built around the idea that you wouldn't have to travel much. They've tried to avoid letting central hubs form (Orgrimar, Iron Forge, Jeuno, etc.) and rather have multiple hubs per continent with everything you need. There are local auction house equivalents (broker really, IE like EQ2 or FFXI) but they are not linked.

[Karinya]

Re: Vanguard Online.

Regarding balance, it's been in Vanguard's FAQ since very early on that they don't want perfect class balance. The archetype system was created to balance classes in fulfilling a specific role but otherwise letting the chips fall where they may. (I have no idea if that's held true to date.)

This sounds to me like "Well, if one job turns out badly underpowered compared to another, everyone can just reroll!" (not change jobs, there's no such thing; start out from level 1 with no fame, turn your old char into a crafting mule, etc.) Balance does not have to mean uniformity, but without it, your class system gets a lot poorer, effectively, because 50% of the population is in the 2-3 most powerful classes. This effect is bad enough even when they're only the *perceived* most powerful classes; if those classes really *are* more powerful it'll be much stronger. Nobody gets their class balance perfect, but at least SE is trying.

I seem to remember all my characters, even my warrior, starting with the equivalent of FFXI's "Warp".

Hmm, I didn't see that in any of their preview materials, but if you've actually played it, then OK. That only solves part of the problem, though, especially if the game is designed to not have a transportation hub.

Either way, the game was built around the idea that you wouldn't have to travel much. They've tried to avoid letting central hubs form (Orgrimar, Iron Forge, Jeuno, etc.) and rather have multiple hubs per continent with everything you need. There are local auction house equivalents (broker really, IE like EQ2 or FFXI) but they are not linked.

OK, but that's obviously not going to work at endgame. If the rest of your guild is raiding the Temple of Ultimate Doom, and you're on another continent, you're just screwed. Worse, if your guild is raiding the T.U.D. on Monday and the Lair of the Ancient Black Dragon (which is on another continent) on Tuesday, the whole guild is screwed. (And by "screwed" I mean "forced to repetitively travel between areas you've already been several/many times".) How many high level FFXI players have schedules like sea on Monday, Dynamis on Tuesday, sky on Wednesday, limbus on Thursday, assault+salvage on Friday? Those activites are scattered over 3 continents but it doesn't matter because you can get there in minutes. If it takes an hour or more to travel across the world, that kind of world-traveling raid schedule would be horribly inconvenient if not impossible. If all the raid activities are in the same area, then you're back to having a central hub - at least for raiders.

In an MMO, "everything you need" includes other players. An appropriate selection of other players to form pickup parties if you want a pickup party; the rest of your guild if you're doing a guild event; people to trade with if you want to buy/sell stuff.

Buburimu has everything you need to exp at levels 12-18 or so. Except other party members, which is why only statics go there. I get the strong impression that Vanguard is going to be a miserable experience outside a static - it'll be a large world, inconvenient to get around, where despite the developers' intentions, most players cluster in locations where they can find other players to adventure with (i.e. the Valkurm Effect). Going anywhere else will involve long and tedious travel and there won't be anyone there when you get there, so you'll have to bring your whole party and then wait a long time if you have to replace someone. They may or may not find solutions to the problems of overcamping the popular areas, but for the most part you'll have to go there anyway unless you're soloing because it's the only place you can find pickup party members at your level range.

I don't think they've given much thought to why certain areas are overcamped in existing MMOs. Crowding doesn't occur because the world isn't big enough; there's lots of places in FFXI standing empty while others are overcrowded. Therefore simply expanding the size of the world won't help.

Unlinked AHs will create a crowding effect too: you generally want to sell where there are lots of buyers and you generally want to buy where there are lots of sellers. So once a few places get established as commercial centers you'll want to go there if you have anything difficult to move, or want anything difficult to find. The location of those centers could be completely arbitrary; it's the presence of other players trading there that makes them desirable. (Look at the bazaar swarms outside Jeuno; depending on server any of the three adjacent zones could be the popular location, but since most buyers go where most of the sellers are, most sellers are going to go there too because it's where the buyers are.) Linked AHs allow players to get the benefit of a large selection of potential trade partners *without* being in physically the same place, which is why they *reduce* the geographical concentration of commerce. Much like AHs themselves reduce bazaar-swarming because they allow players to leave their goods on the AH and go somewhere else without losing the sale.

Eliminate those and you're back to shouting in Jeuno to sell everything - except there is no Jeuno, which makes it even worse. Your potential customers are scattered across three continents. You have to wander the world - slowly - hawking your wares. Realism and immersion are no excuse for throwing that kind of obstacle in front of players - the game has to be playable and enjoyable.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Vanguard Online.

This sounds to me like "Well, if one job turns out badly underpowered compared to another, everyone can just reroll!" (not change jobs, there's no such thing; start out from level 1 with no fame, turn your old char into a crafting mule, etc.) Balance does not have to mean uniformity, but without it, your class system gets a lot poorer, effectively, because 50% of the population is in the 2-3 most powerful classes. This effect is bad enough even when they're only the *perceived* most powerful classes; if those classes really *are* more powerful it'll be much stronger. Nobody gets their class balance perfect, but at least SE is trying.

Every developer is trying, I don't think any will ever succeed. In Sigil's case they are balancing along the lines of group roles, IE, healers heal about equally. Other concerns, soloing ability or PVP strength, are lower priority to retaining class flavor it seems.

Nothing turns me off to an MMORPG quicker than constant class reconstruction though, that I'm certain of.

Hmm, I didn't see that in any of their preview materials, but if you've actually played it, then OK. That only solves part of the problem, though, especially if the game is designed to not have a transportation hub.

OK, but that's obviously not going to work at endgame. If the rest of your guild is raiding the Temple of Ultimate Doom, and you're on another continent, you're just screwed. Worse, if your guild is raiding the T.U.D. on Monday and the Lair of the Ancient Black Dragon (which is on another continent) on Tuesday, the whole guild is screwed. (And by "screwed" I mean "forced to repetitively travel between areas you've already been several/many times".) How many high level FFXI players have schedules like sea on Monday, Dynamis on Tuesday, sky on Wednesday, limbus on Thursday, assault+salvage on Friday? Those activites are scattered over 3 continents but it doesn't matter because you can get there in minutes. If it takes an hour or more to travel across the world, that kind of world-traveling raid schedule would be horribly inconvenient if not impossible. If all the raid activities are in the same area, then you're back to having a central hub - at least for raiders.

Caravan system. You form a caravan. There is a leader. When any member of the caravan logs into the game he is asked if he wishes to log in at his bind point or at the caravan leader's last bind point. Strange, no? Especially in light of their "no teleporting" stance. But convenient.

In an MMO, "everything you need" includes other players. An appropriate selection of other players to form pickup parties if you want a pickup party; the rest of your guild if you're doing a guild event; people to trade with if you want to buy/sell stuff.
Buburimu has everything you need to exp at levels 12-18 or so. Except other party members, which is why only statics go there. I get the strong impression that Vanguard is going to be a miserable experience outside a static - it'll be a large world, inconvenient to get around, where despite the developers' intentions, most players cluster in locations where they can find other players to adventure with (i.e. the Valkurm Effect).

Maybe. As I recall, Mhaura lacks an auction house or moogle or synthesis support. And Valkurm is between two nations where Buburimu is beside one (quit right after CoP.)

Going anywhere else will involve long and tedious travel and there won't be anyone there when you get there, so you'll have to bring your whole party and then wait a long time if you have to replace someone. They may or may not find solutions to the problems of overcamping the popular areas, but for the most part you'll have to go there anyway unless you're soloing because it's the only place you can find pickup party members at your level range.
I don't think they've given much thought to why certain areas are overcamped in existing MMOs. Crowding doesn't occur because the world isn't big enough; there's lots of places in FFXI standing empty while others are overcrowded. Therefore simply expanding the size of the world won't help.

It may change post launch but in Vanguard you pretty much go to the dungeon or area you want and find a group there. There are a tremendous amount of healers too. And you don't really camp either.

The world is huge, as you said, and takes quit some time to cross. But I don't think it's as much of a pain as you fear. Especially not for organized end-gamers.

Unlinked AHs will create a crowding effect too: you generally want to sell where there are lots of buyers and you generally want to buy where there are lots of sellers. So once a few places get established as commercial centers you'll want to go there if you have anything difficult to move, or want anything difficult to find. The location of those centers could be completely arbitrary; it's the presence of other players trading there that makes them desirable. (Look at the bazaar swarms outside Jeuno; depending on server any of the three adjacent zones could be the popular location, but since most buyers go where most of the sellers are, most sellers are going to go there too because it's where the buyers are.) Linked AHs allow players to get the benefit of a large selection of potential trade partners *without* being in physically the same place, which is why they *reduce* the geographical concentration of commerce. Much like AHs themselves reduce bazaar-swarming because they allow players to leave their goods on the AH and go somewhere else without losing the sale.
Eliminate those and you're back to shouting in Jeuno to sell everything - except there is no Jeuno, which makes it even worse. Your potential customers are scattered across three continents. You have to wander the world - slowly - hawking your wares. Realism and immersion are no excuse for throwing that kind of obstacle in front of players - the game has to be playable and enjoyable.

No argument here. They've already altered their plans regarding trade channel vs. player merchants vs. brokers once, I imagine they change them again if their ideal of regional price variations falls flat. Continental variations, which FFXI has, are good too.

[Jei]

Re: Vanguard Online.

I'm trying out this game once it's out with a few friends. Really curious how the game will turn out. A couple friends in beta told me they are quite disappointed by their new WoWish interface and battle style, kinda makes me worry.