Wave of Muslimphobia?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

The point is that there always will be. Yes popularity will wax and wane but it will always be there influencing people in all walks of life directly or indirectly. To think there can be some perfect society with no religion present is just a dream.

[Feba]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

I'm not saying it'll be perfect, but there are already societies that are largely or almost entirely secular. Not that that's better or worse than a country based on religion; it's all in what you do with it. But there's no reason to believe that humans won't forget (and it will be apathy, not abandonment, more than anything else-- people lapse from their parent's traditions, their kids drift farther, and their kids don't see a point to it. People that get their beliefs by actually examining the world looking for truth are in a very small minority) about their religions for the most part eventually. As more and more phenomenon are explained scientifically, people have fewer and fewer roles for supernatural forces and creatures. That's why most of the gods left in educated society are ones who are just some mysterious guiding force, not actually controlling things directly. As people have fewer and fewer reasons for there to be a god, they won't think about it as much, to the point where god becomes effectively useless to their lives. Perhaps religious traditions will survive, but the actual religions will definitely see at least a drop off, and probably a fade into obscurity in the very long term.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Trends suggest otherwise. Fewer people are religious now than any time in recorded history. People who are religious spend less and less time and focus on their religion. Countries are run on a secular basis in many cases, including many of the most powerful countries in the world.

I thought the population of Muslim (both absolute number and as a percentage of the total human population) is growing?

[Feba]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

I believe that's the case, I'm not sure where exactly to get the figures and I know if I start googling I could get sucked in. But yes, while there may be more Muslims (in a twisted way, 9/11 may have helped them in the long term by raising the profile of the Middle East and its culture), in the long term, religion as a whole is declining. Again, I'm not saying this is a good thing, just that it's what is happening. Part of the reason for the rise in percentage (rise in absolute numbers is absolute useless; numbers for that increase for almost everything simply due to births) is because more and more people in the first world are having fewer and fewer children; while people in the third world are continuing a high, normal human birthrate. History shows that as countries modernize, democratize, and otherwise become more "Western", birthrates go down. Women having rights helps; a woman with a career has to think twice about raising a child. It's also harder to support multiple children when you want to send each of them to good schools, to college, etc. Increased science education and knowledge of the effectiveness of contraceptives is another reason (remember that in many third world countries urban legends about condoms causing long term injury, being poisoned, not working, carrying AIDs, etc. are very common, and lead to misuse or disuse). An effective police force and laws prevent rape, forced marriage, etc. Not to mention democracy gives women power, which [five degrees of connection here] means less sex.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

I'm not saying it'll be perfect, but there are already societies that are largely or almost entirely secular. Not that that's better or worse than a country based on religion; it's all in what you do with it. But there's no reason to believe that humans won't forget (and it will be apathy, not abandonment, more than anything else-- people lapse from their parent's traditions, their kids drift farther, and their kids don't see a point to it. People that get their beliefs by actually examining the world looking for truth are in a very small minority) about their religions for the most part eventually. As more and more phenomenon are explained scientifically, people have fewer and fewer roles for supernatural forces and creatures. That's why most of the gods left in educated society are ones who are just some mysterious guiding force, not actually controlling things directly. As people have fewer and fewer reasons for there to be a god, they won't think about it as much, to the point where god becomes effectively useless to their lives. Perhaps religious traditions will survive, but the actual religions will definitely see at least a drop off, and probably a fade into obscurity in the very long term.

What societies are largely or almost secular? Not being an ass but I've had a long emotional evening and my brain is mush so I'm trying to rap my head around it but failing.

And we'll have to disagree about religion disappearing because we see things differently because of our age. When I was young my mother, who is religious, crammed her religion down my throat. Then my uncle tried to do the same thing with his religion. He told my mother that I should have a choice. Then I met a man and was engaged and he was yet another religion so I had to convert and follow his. So I'm fairly well versed in 3 different religions yet I practice none. When I was a young adult I didn't have the time and I didn't feel the need. You are invincible at that age and you just don't think of life ending. Work, school, kids, and everything else in between keeps you busy and time ticks by. Then as you age you begin to wonder. You think of the community that religion has and how that is comforting now that the kids have flown the nest. It doesn't mean you jump right in but the thoughts cross your mind. As time wears on, health issues or aches and pains remind you that you are mortal and the thread of life does have an end. You think about what is out there after death. Is it just the end or is there somewhere that you are going to go? And if you go somewhere, will I be able to? Have I followed the rules close enough? Then the thought of religion again creeps into your mind. Should I start going and ask for forgiveness? You remember the sense of community in religion and again that attracts you.

Different ages have different outlooks on things but in the end, we all age. We all start looking down the tunnel of death and wondering where it will lead. Whats on the other side? How will I get there? Will I get there? And thats where religion comes into play. They say they have the answers. They give you hope that you will live on. They tell you what you need to do to get to the other side. And at this time in life, its exactly what you are looking for. In the end, there will always be religion....because there is an end.

[Raydeus]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

I think it's ok to wonder, to want to know, to be afraid.

And you don't need to be old, just need to lose someone close or being in a situation you know you had a very good chance of going for good right there to actually realize how real death is.

But the worst thing one can do in my opinion is let that uncertainty make you vulnerable enough to follow anyone who would give you an appeasing answer, just because everyone else is doing the same.

It's the same tactics midnight CMs use to sell things by making it seem like the end of the world if you don't buy their products, and people still buy them even thought they know with 100% certainty the sales guy is lying to them. But they are still willing to give them the money just to buy that little moment of comfort.

I guess that's just not for me, I'm afraid the way I see it no one can tell us what's going to happen on the other side. And if there really is a god I think the last thing he/she/it would want is for us to lie to ourselves and run away from the reality he/she/it gave us just to go hide behind the lies of the Faith businesses. That's for sure.

So I rather find out on my own without preconceptions. If it turns out religions were right in one or two things at least I wont have any regrets because this is the path I chose by my own free will. And it might sound very weird but just the same way I look forward to knowing the rest of an interesting story I'm kinda looking forward to know what happens next, whatever it is.


Aaaand I think I'll stop the senseless rambling right here. No need to take anything I say seriously at this hour (or at any hour for that matter.)

[Feba]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

In the end, there will always be religion....because there is an end.

Keep in mind that I believe that brain uploading will be doable within the next couple hundred of years. If not that, some other immortality technology. By that point your main concern is entropy.

Your argument basically consists of "There are no Atheists in Foxholes Retirement Homes", which is of course false. Not that age won't lead some people to consider death more seriously, there are plenty of people who accept the fact that they are going to die, it's going to be ugly, and they will leave nothing but their works and a corpse. I'm one of them; personally I prefer it, it makes life worth living when you know you only get one. Philosophy is not a science, one is not better than the other. But just because some people deal with their mortality in different ways does not mean we all, or even most, will turn back to religion.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

But you are vulnerable, there is no getting around that. And in that state, you cling to things that may, at one time, seem fanciful but now feel like they could help.

I believe our gods live in each of us and that we worship him with the way we lead our lives. I don't need to attend a church and be told I can't eat meat on certain days and must fast because the leaders of the church said so but then turn around and say later "Oh we changed our minds, you can eat meat on Fridays or abstain from fasting if you fall under certain criteria!" Seriously? So what are the criteria? If you work is one. Well hell, thats a god damn good chunk of the Catholic population! And these can also vary from diocese to diocese.....REALLY! They can just change things up if need be! And don't feel I'm picking on just them because I could go on and on about other asinine bs in other religions too.

I'm just making a point that man took the word of god and FUCKED IT UP! So I choose my path and I choose how to worship, I don't need an organization telling me at this point in my life. Down the road? I don't know. I don't see it but I can understand it. I'm not well and I fear for my life constantly and can see the appeal and comfort of an organized religion. Its one of the reasons I don't see it ever dying out.

Your argument basically consists of "There are no Atheists in Foxholes Retirement Homes", which is of course false. Not that age won't lead some people to consider death more seriously, there are plenty of people who accept the fact that they are going to die, it's going to be ugly, and they will leave nothing but their works and a corpse. I'm one of them; personally I prefer it, it makes life worth living when you know you only get one. Philosophy is not a science, one is not better than the other. But just because some people deal with their mortality in different ways does not mean we all, or even most, will turn back to religion.

I never said every single older person gravitates to religion. I can tell you that dang near every single one has thought about it though. My g/f works in a nursing home and I volunteer there (yay I'm a candy striper! and thats with ONE p ). You are one of them because you are young. I wish I could be around in 60 years to talk to you about this again. You might not change your mind but you would see the other side of the coin much more clearly. And it doesn't have to be all or even most, I'm just saying that religion isn't going anywhere no matter what no matter how small the base is.

[Murphie]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

You don't need religion to be moral. Society benefits from lawfulness. As social animals, we, as a general rule, like to live in an ordered and lawful society. It makes life easier. Hence, morality. It was around pre-religion, and would be around it without. The idea that people only do good out of fear of retribution from some unknown god is completely opposite of how things actually work for a lot of people.

Also, I take umbrage at the suggestion that man NEEDS religion. Or even needs to believe in something greater than ourselves. I may acknowledge that the human mind, and certainly the human experience is quite limited, and that in the vastness of this great universe we live in that there are likely to be a great number of things that we can't comprehend, or that possess abilities or consciousness greater than we could ever grasp, but that doesn't mean I'm religious, or that I need religion.

I can say with no authority, but with rather strong feeling that the reason many people on the brink of death contemplate god (specifically the one of the Christian variety) is because religion is such a pervasive part of our society and upbringing. Even more so in those who are considerably older and near death, because religion was even more all-pervasive just a generation or so ago. But I'm fairly confident that in the absence of such upbringing and external influence, that a man on his deathbed would not be thinking to himself "Welp, maybe there IS something to that whole "god" thing. No time like the present to change my mind!"

[Raydeus]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

And religions actively indoctrinate people and make them believe they are evil by default. And of course, only their Faith *coughdonationscough* can save them!

But wait! There's more!

If you donate enough to get the <insert religious honcho> a brand new set of gold furniture for his new mistress you will recieve: Ten, YES 10 sins free of punishment!

Not enough?

If you call in the next 10 minutes you will also recieve the book "Guide to destroy the sinners who don't donate to this Religion: For dummies" completely free!

Call now! Our certified representatives of <insert religious figure> are awaiting your call!

Keep in mind that I believe that brain uploading will be doable within the next couple hundred of years. If not that, some other immortality technology. By that point your main concern is entropy.

I wonder how many people will be waiting in line to pod you when that happens.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Raydeus, saying that all religion is like scientology (or perhaps 15th century catholicism) is roughly analogous to saying Every Car Is A Pinto - Television Tropes & Idioms, or, even worse, like someone saying that every MMO is World of Warcraft.

[Raydeus]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Every religion is a business.

It started as a medium to control larger numbers of people. They would not rally behind a leader (and gang) who would live comfortable at the expense of the rest, but they would certainly rally behind the representative of the greater power (and helpers) who could bring them salvation and paradise.*

It's no coincidence so many early goverments were run by the religious authority at the time.

And even though they have been "officially" separated from political power in most countries their influence both economic and political can't be denied, just need to take a look at any recent elections to see their hand inside everyone's pants.

Now, I'm not saying they haven't done some work, all companies need to show their costumers their money is paying for something. But it's all there in front of us. And it requires an unbelievable amount of conditioning and denial to be unable to see it.



* Which conveniently will only be delivered AFTER people die. Kinda like the guy who tells you he will give you 200,000 bucks if you give him 100,000 first. Yeah, right.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Every religion is a business.

And every Mexican is a drug lord and every blond is dumber than a sack of hammers.

Because if we're being offensive, why stop at religion?

[Feba]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

It's no coincidence so many early goverments were run by the religious authority at the time.

It should be pointed out that we don't really know this.

It could easily be that governments sprouted up first, and later 'officialized' popular, pervasive, or practical religions. It's very hard to say precisely what happened because humanity hadn't yet developed written language. If some aliens stopped on earth asking for directions, and then said "by the way, you guys are kind of disorganized" on the way out, we wouldn't know. It's incredibly safe to assume that the written works we have are just a fragment of the written works that were created when writing was invented; and the written works that were created when writing was invented were just a fraction of the word of mouth tales of the time; and the word of mouth tales of the time were just a fraction of the ones that had been around a hundred years ago.

Most of humanity is lost because of the lack of a written record.

[Raydeus]

Re: Wave of Muslimphobia?

Good point.

Considering the role Religion has played in keeping the masses in check in recent history it's easy to asume it was there very early in the process, but we don't really know.

And every Mexican is a drug lord and every blond is dumber than a sack of hammers.

Because if we're being offensive, why stop at religion?

Offensive? Let me guess, yours isn't a business, but many of the others (if not all) are.

Yeah, I don't think this would end well so let's leave it at that.