Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

[Feba]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

its about what you do, its about action and how you live your life - simple as that. What a few people do is not representative of the whole.

Yep. They are Christians. They do not represent the majority of Christians.

Some Priests raped children. The clergy is not secret-nambla.

Some people in the financial industry were crooked cheaters. Not every accountant is trying to bring down the economy.

Some people took flight classes to run planes into buildings. Not every student pilot is a boxcutter away from killing thousands.

Yet it's silly to say they weren't Priests, that they weren't financiers, that they weren't pilots. They didn't act in a manner people from those fields should've, but that does not remove them from the group.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

Yet it's silly to say they weren't Priests, that they weren't financiers, that they weren't pilots. They didn't act in a manner people from those fields should've, but that does not remove them from the group.

And you're willing to stand by this statement?

OK. Democrats were for slavery, the majority were against the civil rights movement and for segregation in the 60s and many of them were card carrying members of the KKK at one point. You vote democrat, right? You're part of that group. You probably have a white hood in your closet, right?

No, no, you can't separate yourself now. Democrats had and have racists in their ranks. David Duke wanted to be president, he was in the KKK and a Democrat. Harry Reid said that he felt Obama could be successful because he's only half-black and didn't have the "negro dialect." in other words, Reid is racist.

You are a Democrat.

Now, does it sound like I'm being fair to you?

Hell no. That's not fair at all. That's bullshit. There are racist Democrats and thy are very few these days in any political circle, but to hit every Democrat with the same brush is unfair and ignorant. I separate the bad elements from the core because I want to be fair.

[Mezlo]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

And you're willing to stand by this statement?

OK. Democrats were for slavery, the majority were against the civil rights movement and for segregation in the 60s and many of them were card carrying members of the KKK at one point. You vote democrat, right? You're part of that group. You probably have a white hood in your closet, right?

No, no, you can't separate yourself now.

This arguement is greatly flawed.

[Feba]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

And you're willing to stand by this statement?

Absolutely

You vote democrat, right? You're part of that group. You probably have a white hood in your closet, right?

1- Most of the time, yes.
2- I don't really consider myself a democrat, but let's go with it:
3- Way to miss the point.

No, no, you can't separate yourself now.

No, I can't separate myself. In general, I agree with democrats. In the past, the democratic party was largely in support of policies which we now clearly see as racist and atrocious. Yes, many democrats in the past were racist, and still some democrats are racists. I am not part of that some, but I have no problem saying I'm in a group with racists.

Let's try painting in broader strokes and see when you figure out the fallacy, BBQ. Many men are rapists. You are a man. Are you a rapist? Or are these people not male? Clearly, you can't deny that about half of the population has a Y chromosome, and that a large number of people with a Y chromosome have raped people. Make it even broader; let's just say "BBQ is a human. So was Hitler. BBQ hates the Jews!".

Are you seeing where this falls about? You can't declare someone isn't a part of a group simply because it's unfavorable to that group. Just like the example of the man saying that no true Scotsman would act in such a way, you can't say no true democrat would be racist, you can't say no true possesor of a Y chromosome would rape someone, and you can't say no true Christian would plot an insurrection.

Yes, it's not easy to admit that you're in the same group as loons sometimes. I live in Kansas, so does the WBC. I watch anime, so do plenty of omgJpnizestuffIzdab3ste^er!!!!!^___^ people. I play violent video games, so did some people that murdered people. I am hispanic, so are plenty of people in the country illegally. Stereotypes suck, but anyone with a brain realizes that living in Kansas doesn't make you hate everyone, watching anime doesn't mean you're obsessed with little figurines, playing violent video games doesn't encourage you to go kill people, and being hispanic doesn't mean you're stealing jerbs; and people that truly believe stereotypes and biases are going to be idiots no matter how far you try to distance yourself.

Well, they might be right about Kansas.

[Solymir]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

Let's try painting in broader strokes and see when you figure out the fallacy, BBQ. Many men are rapists. You are a man. Are you a rapist? Or are these people not male? Clearly, you can't deny that about half of the population has a Y chromosome, and that a large number of people with a Y chromosome have raped people. Make it even broader; let's just say "BBQ is a human. So was Hitler. BBQ hates the Jews!".

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you can use those examples. We choose to be religious, we choose our political affiliations. We do not choose our race, or sex.

I am enjoying the discussion. I just felt compelled to say this.

[Mezlo]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you can use those examples. We choose to be religious, we choose our political affiliations. We do not choose our race, or sex.

I am enjoying the discussion. I just felt compelled to say this.

Meh... whether we choose it or not, it doesn't matter... We are talking about affiliations whether chosen or not and whether certain actions deem your affilliation null and void because it doesn't go with the popular belief of said affiliation.

Feba's dead on imo.

[Solymir]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

Why are choices irrelevent to this conversation?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you can use those examples. We choose to be religious, we choose our political affiliations. We do not choose our race, or sex.

This is exactly what I've been alluding to in the examples I've made.

I choose a faith.
I choose a political viewpoint.
I choose my hobby.
I choose my profession.

I did not choose to be white.
I did not choose to be male.
I did not choose my disabilities.
I do not choose what other people do.

And yet, for things other people choose to do, I should still be in the same category as them?

So Mother Theresa and WBC are in the same boat?

Mmkay, whatever. Enjoy that prejudice you got there.

[Mezlo]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

So Mother Theresa and WBC are in the same boat?

but WBC are not true Christians

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

(from No True Scotsman - RationalWiki )

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing.

With respect to religion, the fallacy is well used, often even overused. Religious apologists will repeatedly try to use the No True Scotsman argument to distance themselves from more extreme or fundamentalist groups but this does not prevent such extremists actually being religious - they themselves would certainly argue otherwise. Moderate Muslim leaders, for example, are well known for declaring Islamic extremists as "not true Muslims" as Islam is a religion of peace. Similarly, moderate Christians, such as those in Europe, sometimes aghast when viewing their right-wing counterparts in the US, immediately declaring them "not true Christians", even though they believe in the same God and get their knowledge of it from the same book.

[Feba]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

So Mother Theresa and WBC are in the same boat?

Depends on how big the boat is. Are we talking about the 'bigots who disrupt peaceful proceedings to scream at people who've done nothing to deserve any abuse' boat, or the 'Christian' boat? Mother Teresa wasn't much of a bigot, but WBC are. Mother Teresa and WBC are both Christians.

I did not choose to be white.
I did not choose to be male.

Mmkay, let's go with your citizenship then. Whatever country you're from, I'm sure one of your countrymen has done something atrocious. Whether you are an immigrant or natural born, you make a choice to continue being a citizen of that country -- you can renounce it at any time. Let's assume you're American-- does that mean you support all of the crimes that Americans have committed? Of course not.

Actually, a more vivid example. The military. One doubtlessly has a choice in joining or not. I'm sure most militaries have committed at least one atrocity over their life-- again, let's use America. My Lai. American soldiers acting under orders committed heinous acts. Pick a choice, BBQ:

1- They weren't really American soldiers, or:
2- They were American soldiers.

In case one, your argument is clearly based on a fallacy: they were demonstrably members of the US Armed Forces, acting on its behalf. In case two, your argument is null, but we reach the easy solution: Accept their membership in the group. Condemn their actions. There is not a bingo club on this planet that does not have one member in it who has done a terrible thing at some point-- if we pretend that we can never join unclean groups, we are simply lying. We can, though, accept that our interests and alligences are shared by those who do not share our ideology, morals, character, or whatever else you like to call it.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church gets owned

This is exactly what I've been alluding to in the examples I've made.

I choose a faith.
I choose a political viewpoint.
I choose my hobby.
I choose my profession.

I did not choose to be white.
I did not choose to be male.
I did not choose my disabilities.
I do not choose what other people do.

And yet, for things other people choose to do, I should still be in the same category as them?

So Mother Theresa and WBC are in the same boat?

Mmkay, whatever. Enjoy that prejudice you got there.

That;s just how things are dude. Sometimes it takes one person to ruin it for everyone else.

Stereotyping is just as ignorant as racism.. but what can you do?
I didn't read the whole argument, so just ignore me if I missed the point.