Obama's Speech on Race & America

[Telera]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

I could honestly care less about the rest of the world when I can't even figure out how me and my mom are going to pay off my student loans within the allotted period, or how we'll pay for my asthma medicine when I turn 21 this summer and I'm not covered by her meager health-plan, or how she is going to continue to pay bills, car insurance, buy food and still afford the medication for her ulcers, anemia and ensuing diabetes.

God forbid she comes down with something else, or I'll have to start robbing grocery stores.

The last time I looked towards the future with a blind optimism was the 1st grade, when I thought that all it took to be an astronaut was a dream and a poster above my bed stating I could, "do it."

It's been more than 10 years since I had this much faith in humanity, and it pains me to see how he gets demonized. It's almost as if there are powers that be that don't want America healed.

Bush > Clinton > Bush > Clinton is not a cycle that I would like to see. Honestly.

More truth.

You people keep saving me from posting as much. Which is good, because I'm busy intellectually dancing circles around fucktards who think presenting a challenging idea makes me an internet troll. LOL. Telera Troll. I want a fucking .gif of that... ON TOPIC.

America is in an economic shit hole for anyone who isn't Old Money. (Which, brings me to an aside of how much of a fucking retarded idea it is to force the TV change on people in the midst of it, but hey, we'll all just get the news off the internet. Fuck television.) A good spread of the population of America is sitting in a similar situation to WishMaster's. Job availability = dying. Minimum wage = shit. Price of everything = increasing at a psychotically disproportionate rate. It's like the great Christmas Inflation of XI, except with *real* consequences. Families with more than one child spending double what they spent on groceries nearly. Double on gas. Double in heating. And likely electricity. And yet wages haven't doubled.

Rest of the world tells us to stop whining about oil price. We pay more already, nyah nyah, wah, baw. Well, I'll point out again something my French professor told me. He sat down, his friend in France, and he. They compared taxes at Income Tax time, and after everything was figured up, they paid only 2% or so more in than he did.

Decent healthcare, even for people who can't afford it. No worrying about 'Do I want to eat, pay the car payment, or maybe get this lump in my breast checked out?' (Which is MY situation right now. I can't fucking sleep at night it bugs me so much.) Accidents, a mere 5 tiny ass stitches in my face cost me $1000 that I didn't even have. In the end, I had to turn to my parents, or I would've sunk. Period. The end. And if Dad hadn't had a settlement on his Workers Comp case, even that wouldn't have been of any use. My family is staring at something much like WishMaster's, but without the meds. Insurance? Costs out the ass for anything good. Cheap stuff isn't worth the money you pay in for it. Full-time job? Trying. Most ardently trying. Market isn't there. It isn't there for a lot of people. Everything around here for months has been part-time only, or nursing and other things in which I have zero training.

So when you have Americans, who like it or not big business, work on very fixed incomes and then you tell them their gasoline is going to 4 or 5 a gallon, if it hasn't already, yeah, shit is going to start crumbling.

I won't be able to afford to get to my job. I can't imagine the people who work even further out, say 2+ hours from home. And yes, I drive a tiny-ass fuel efficient car. Still takes $40 a pop to fill it.

If it hasn't, it will soon come to a question of gasoline, food, house, electricity. Which do we need most? Which can we go without? You can in theory live just fine without electricity but the DHS are apparently under the impression that it isn't good for children and will take them. So you have to keep that. And you have to have food, and the house. But then you can't get the gas. Well, where the fuck do you get the money to do all of the above without gas to get to work? Minimum wage in my state = $6.50 or so. Gas per gallon: currently pushing $3.50, about to easily slip into $4. Are we not seeing the problem yet? 2/3 of the hourly wage to *gasoline*. What about the shit you need to live? And employers don't want to pay more. They'll just hire the illegals who will work for fuck-all for pay, and leave us in the dirt.

We need to stop blowing money on shit that isn't our business and take care of our own. What good is protecting the home front if they're all homeless, naked, and starving?

I'm not usually what I consider a 'democrat', but I'm a bit fucking fed up of the Republicans, I can tell you that. And Obama is the 'lesser evil' out of he and HRC. If she gets in, we are in for a much worse ride than we're currently on.

[Vyuru]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Oh, and furthermore, I'll also point out that the Japanese had been gearing for war ever since the Naval Treaty of 1921 set the limits for the max tonnage per carrier and maximum tonnage of carriers in the fleets for the nations of the world.

Japan was set to a max of 81,000 tons worth of carriers, with carriers of the world not to exceed 33,000 tons.

Japanese carriers at the start of the war:

Akagi 36,500 tons
Kaga 38,200 tons
Ryujo 10,600 tons
Soryu 18,800 tons
Hiryu 20,250 tons
Shokaku 25,675 tons
Zuikaku 25,675 tons

175,700-81,000 = 94,700 tons over the treaty limit.

The U.S by comparison, had two 36,000 ton carriers, the Lexington and the Saratoga that they made using a legal loophole since both were originally laid down as battlecruisers and converted to carriers. The Wasp brought the U.S total carrier tonnage to 135,200 tons, 200tons over the limit specified in the treaty.

[MrMageo]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

1) It showed that we could destroy them without ever needing to land on their shore. The nuclear bombings were the one thing that was able to shock the Japanese government into surrendering.

Those are exactly my point. Someone reaches out and slaps you but when you reach out and slap them with nuclear weapons its acceptable.

(you also neglect to comment on the roughly 400,000 that died in resault of radition related deaths)

The Hibakusha

Monument at ground zero in Nagasaki.The surviving victims of the bombings are called Hibakusha (被爆者, Hibakusha?), a Japanese word that literally translates to "explosion-affected people". The suffering of the bombing is the root of Japan's postwar pacifism[citation needed], and the nation has sought the abolition of nuclear weapons from the world ever since. As of 31 March 2007, there were 251,834 hibakusha recognized by the Japanese government; most live in Japan.[50] The government of Japan recognizes about 1% of these as having illnesses caused by radiation.[51] The memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki contain lists of the names of the hibakusha who are known to have died since the bombings. Updated annually on the anniversaries of the bombings, as of August 2007 the memorials record the names of almost 400,000 hibakusha — 253,008[52] in Hiroshima, and 143,124[53] in Nagasaki. News accounts often use these figures as a source for the numbers of people who have died because of the bombings

Bringing the total to about 600,000 by your numbers.

however you are wrong about the total deaths assumed in both bombings is believed to be 200,000(hiroshima) by the end of 1945, 80,000(Nagasaki) by the end of 1945.

Bringing the total numbers to about 680,000

Korean survivors
During the war Japan brought many Korean conscripts to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki to work as forced labor. According to recent estimates, about 20,000 Koreans were killed in Hiroshima and about 2,000 died in Nagasaki. It is estimated that one in seven of the Hiroshima victims was of Korean ancestry.[54] For many years Koreans had a difficult time fighting for recognition as atomic bomb victims and were denied health benefits.[citation needed] Though such issues have been addressed in recent years, issues regarding recognition linger

just thought you might like to know why korea hates the USA.

But ya I guess when someone you opress and manipulate for years, reaches out and slaps you sundenley they are terorists. Your logic is flawed.
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also Id like to know how you get exact numbers on the deaths. It strikes me as odd were you possibly working the pearly gates the day all these people died? Did you ask them how the were all killed. The fact is your exact numbers for civilian deaths are bogus, no one knows how many were killed. If you can provide me legitimate proof of your numbers then I may be more inclined to beleive you. Look at any WW2 death toll, none deal in exact numbers.

As for your carrier debate who cares, Germany broke their rules too and no one stopped them till it was too late. Hell the USA signed a nuclear disarmament agreement with russia then conrinued to make nuclear weapons.
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Also your comparision between conventional and nuclear bombing is whack. 2 bombs killed half as many people as hundreds did. It has no bearing in the arguement that the USA used 2 WMD's to terrorize the japanese into surrendering.

[Caspian]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

wait....so Japan is secretly running Al Quada?

[Dranzia]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

"Terrorizing" a country that is out for control of the entire world is hard to do. Strategically and specifically striking said country, in order to bring a solid end to their bid for control, is another.

At least, it is to me anyway...

[MrMageo]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Yes however those civilian deaths were not to terrorize, shock, scare, strike fear. The Bombs on hiroshima and Nagasaki, were designed to terrorize, shock, scare, strike fear. Used to hopefully end the war through terroizing, shcoking, scaring, and striking fear into japan. Not a conventional destruction of key military targets, ammo dumps, oil feild. But selected civilian areas that were left untouched by US bombardment. To maximize the terror,shock, and fear.

[Vyuru]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Reread this again:

Next, the U.S dropped the bombs AFTER demanding Japan's unconditional surrender, twice I believe. Which was turned down by the Japanese.

The nuclear bombings served several purposes:

1) It showed that we could destroy them without ever needing to land on their shore. The nuclear bombings were the one thing that was able to shock the Japanese government into surrendering.

And you will see that it was not the case of reaching out and slapping them with nukes just because they slapped us first.

Also your comparision between conventional and nuclear bombing is whack. 2 bombs killed half as many people as hundreds did.

Who cares if it's one bomb or 200 bombs that killed them? They are still dead. Would it have been any better if a few thousand bombs were used to kill all those people? Death in war is just as horrible whether it is by nuke or conventional means.

If you really wanna go into which is the worse death, I can assure you that going down next to a flaming ship in an oil covered ocean with no land in sight and the pretty good possibility of sharks isn't a pleasent death. On the plus side, if you burn alive in the ocean first, the sharks don't get ya.

just thought you might like to know why korea hates the USA.

Gee, I thought that had something to do with the Korean war.

also Id like to know how you get exact numbers on the deaths. It strikes me as odd were you possibly working the pearly gates the day all these people died? Did you ask them how the were all killed. The fact is your exact numbers for civilian deaths are bogus, no one knows how many were killed.

Zero, written by Masatake Okumiya and Jiro Horikoshi, with some stuff by Saburo Sakai, lists the late 1947 casualty reports conducted by the Japanese Army at the time. I would tend to trust the people who buried and counted the dead over other, "estimates".

Look at any WW2 death toll, none deal in exact numbers.

Look at the figures on a squad based level and you get exact numbers, as it goes up to entire armies you get estimates. You know they did count as they buried the dead in those cities right?

As for your carrier debate who cares

Ohhh I dunno, maybe because Japan was planning on war and building up for it? Your statment that Japan only attacked us because we sank their submarine that was attempting entry into port is completely bogus.

Also, kindly have a more reliable source other than Wiki. It's a good basic guide, but nothing you should be quoting from.

however you are wrong about the total deaths assumed in both bombings is believed to be 200,000(hiroshima) by the end of 1945, 80,000(Nagasaki) by the end of 1945.

Considering the fact that I am sitting on the 1945 report made by the Japanese Army, let me tell you that YOU are wrong.

By the end of 1945, it was believed that in Hiroshima, there were 78,150 dead, 51,408 injured or missing. In Nagasaki it was believed that there were 23,753 dead, 43,020 missing or injured.

Frankly I'm amazed that you aren't wondering how I know the carrier tonnage, especially since the tonnage of the Japanese carrier's was lied about for so long.

As I said earlier, kindly read up on this stuff.
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Not a conventional destruction of key military targets, ammo dumps, oil feild.

That is because they were already destroyed, before we demanded their surrender.

But selected civilian areas that were left untouched by US bombardment. To maximize the terror,shock, and fear.

Both cities had been bombed previously.

Hiroshima contained the 2nd Army Group Headquarters, which commanded the ground defense of southern Japan. Hiroshima was also a major gathering point for troops and as such was also a major storage depo.

Nagasaki was a seapot that contained industries relating to producing weapons, ships, military equipment, and other materials. It also contained the Mitsubishi Steel Works, as well as dockyards and the Mitsubishi-Urakami Torpedo Works.

Hardly civilian only towns now are they?

[MrMageo]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Ohhh I dunno, maybe because Japan was planning on war and building up for it? Your statment that Japan only attacked us because we sank their submarine that was attempting entry into port is completely bogus.

And ammasing a massive fleet, supplying weapons to one of japans allies is not a flex of aggresion, the US brought pearl harbour on them selves and they used scare tactics through mass murder to achieve victory.

There is a fine line between what occured in august over japan and what took place in the previous years with bomb dropings. The fact of the matter is this was a pre planned mass murder for the full effect of the power the US had. The other civilian deaths were in no way the same.

The same tactic was used by Germany against britain, Striking the homes and families of soilders to demoralize and terrorize them out of the war. This murder is counted as such because it happened to an Allied nation, however the deaths to the japanese is no its considered casualty of war.

Its great that those who win the past battles have the ability to write history isn't it.

You still want to deny the 400,000 deaths caused by the bomb post-drop. Your going to tell me the wall of names of those murdered by the lingering effects does not exist. Give your head a shake, Japan is still realing from this, and you claim it was the right thing to do. Give your head a shake. Acctually dont I'llgo with ya on this.

9/11 was just because the United States had being pulling strings throught the muslim world for years. Keeping tabs on its doings with its puppet regime in israel. The murers and autrocities that were run through Israel. Striking america on the homeland would cause terror and fear in its citizens. You know what it worked, all you hear on TVis terror, terrorist, Al Qaeda etc etc.

The US is a nation of hypocricy, they break from britain because they do not wish to have a tyrant thousands of miles away dictate policy to them, then turn around and do it all over the world.

[Feba]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Goddamn people. Not only are you taking him seriously, but yellowmage of all people is the one that said something.


I'm actually somewhat ashamed of you right now.

[Malacite]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

The USA did give Japan fair warning, and they didn't listen.

No, that did not justify the bombing of innocent lives, but just think about how many more people would have died had the USA gone through with their full invasion plan. I don't recall the numbers but the estimated casualties (on all sides) was just obscene.

And I believe it was England who bombed Germany's civilians first, and then they responded in kind.


Now, NO MORE DERAILMENT PLEASE. I'd rather not have to resort to PM mods to moderate this @_@;

[MrMageo]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

im ashamed of you.

History always has a way of biting you in the ass, and as a direct off shoot, this hatred of the easteren world and vice versa is built in the exact same principles as the race situation in america.

By bridging the gap with these nations, instead of lableing them as terrorist nations or harboring nations, and infact recognizing them as nations the road to peace will begin to be laid.

By forcing western policy down the throats of easterners who o not wish for it we are no different then those who blow themselves up to make their point. By sending in an armed force to change a countries government in the case of afghanistan or restucter an nations entire political system, we are no different then those who plan coup's.

Obama's Speech spoke of race, now it can be directley extended to religion and regions of the world as well. The fact that the US chose to invade Iraq drring peace time with no head from the UN nor support from the majority of Iraqi's shows to them that nothing has changed and the west still wants to opress them with their policies and societal views.

So before you go off the depend YM and Feba maybe you should look at what we are talking about, sure we can dispute numbers etc. However you can't dispute the fact that the incidents america involved itself in have caused hate from countries around the world. (Including many of its strongest allies.)

It takes little money to extend a hand as opposed to running a war. Obama has acctually told the press and the people he plans to hold a summit of all arab leaders, to have them come together and work as one to a more prosperous middle east world. This has not happened as far back as I can remember when a leader of the west wishes to hold a middle east summit. A well known lesson, Never Bite the hand that feeds you. As of this year Canada has become the #1 Investor into the united states, for the 60 years prior it has been saudi araibia, followed by some other prominent middle east nations, iraq, and Iran for example. Driving these countries away with a decade long, or longer war in their own backyard hurts american intrest and lowers a countries ecconomy. The longer this goes on the more investment the pull out, the more investment they pull out the deeper america sinks into recession. The deeper america sinks into a recession the more other countries pull out their investment, and the more that happens the deeper the country sinks still.

The main factor in rebuilding a countries eakend ecconomy is selling itself to the world. Through exports, foriegn investment and what have you. The only way to rebuild these sales is to stop the war now nd rebuild relations with countries that feel wronged. That includes all the countries that feel wronged. Iraq, Iran, Syria, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Japan, Saudi Arabia, the list goes on. The world is a much smaller place then it was during the cold war, hell even the 90's. Holding past grudges against areas that were an "old time" enemy (Cuba, Middle East, Korea).

Imagine what kind of world we would live in today if Britain and France didnt reconcile their hundred years of hatred. Imagine what kind of world we would live in now if America and Britain never reconciled their differences. Imagine what kind of world we can live in when the western nations and eastern nations reconcile their differences. Imagine what kind of world we can live in when, Capitalism, and Communism can reconcile their differences. Imagine wat kind of world we can live in if all accross the world everyone could reconcile their differences, difference of religion, politics, society, and race. Imagine going some where without the fear of being attacked or kidnapped because you come from the rich western world, why cant we help to make it a rich eastern world, a rich southern world, an a rich northern world. Why must we build ourselves in from the outside world stroking our ego's and turning the blind eye when it dosent directly involve us. Why must we live in a country where the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. Why must we live in a nation where we consider it our responsiblity to change the lives of others because they are diffrent. Imagine a world where everyone is welcome, loved and respected.

It has to start somewhere, just need to find out who is the bigger "man" why can't it be the USA.

[jwalton]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

You talk too much.

[Malacite]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

If you want to debate the ethics of WW2, go start a thread on it.

[Neomage]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Mageo, for once I have to agree with you. Much of what you said is true, and, in fact, most of the problems caused in the middle east today are results of the Allied Nations messing up big time when they divided up the Ottoman Empire after WWII. While I don't really agree with you about Japan being innocent in WWII, the part about the Middle East is one thing I agree with 100%.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Obama's Speech on Race & America

Maybe what Bush was trying to do was to start a World War, and catapult us out of the ensuing recession.