Marijuana

[Sabaron]

Re: Marijuana

As for the subject at hand, the agrument for legalizing it or saying its ok b/c of its uses medically really doesn't hold water. Morphine is a powerful drug used in hospital settings, but that doesn't mean its not dangerous in recreational use.

Medical? Please... Pot isn't really a medicine, though truly a good deal of western medicine is just used to hide symptoms rather than do any actual good. Pot makes you less apt to care that your life sucks. In that way it is a medicine. Aspirin makes you not feel pain (it doesn't mean there isn't something still wrong with you), it just means you don't feel it as much. Pot is a recreational substance... Hemp is an industrial substance. Pot use isn't inherently dangerous, it takes a huge amount of it to kill anyone. It can be argued, however, that smoking it is inherently bad for you, but there are other methods of taking it (eat or vaporize). I don't think anyone has ever died from a pot overdose and it doesn't have permanent side effects (it acts on a specialized receptor in the brain whereas substances like alcohol are actually toxic). THC is a highly non-toxic psychoactive compound. It's effects are rather temporary in nature though you may see some changes in a person who consumes it to excess, these are likely the result of a combination of factors (with most likely the same root cause as the self-medication).

Pot self-medication is similar to any other addiction wherein a drug is taken to excess so that the person doesn't care so much about their abysmal lot in life. The substance rates lowest on the scale of addictive chemicals--there are many medications that serve very spurious medical purposes that are also quite addictive such as sleep aids and pain killers which also become substances of abuse.

Honestly, I'm not your father, do what you want. Personally, I've had too many friends who've completely fucked up their lives because of the drug and that alone is reason enough for me to stay away from it.

That is my point exactly except to say that... Where you say "I'm" I say, "We" referring to the American Body Politic. It is not our job to say what you can and cannot do. The US is founded on the basis of personal liberty, not some type of adult "Nannyism". I'm not your mommy and I'm surely not interested in paying good tax money so that we can put some old lady who grows pot in jail... I feel there's way too much "Nannyism" going around in the US and it needs to be stopped. It becomes a vehicle for corruption and a method of divesting people of their hard earned money. Money is a representation of work which is a representation of time spent toward the ends of society. Time is lifeforce, therefore, to persecute "stoners" is to waste your life doing so. Do you really care that much? I will simply assume the answer for that from most of the anti-marijuana league herein that the answer is yes. You would rather a pot smoker spend his entire life in jail (or better yet, why don't we just shoot them all--that way we don't have to feed them--dirty bastards) than let them peacefully enjoy themselves while doing no harm to you.

Rubbish.

You're not God.

You didn't write the 10 Commandments.

God didn't mention pot in them either (it's also not in Leviticus).

[DakAttack]

Re: Marijuana

There you go assuming again... I don't actually smoke pot (though I have). You don't have to do something to disagree with how certain people are treated. You do not deserve a moment more of my time. IMO you are a terrible person and I weep for anyone who actually encounters you in real life... I'm sure you'll grow up to be a wonderful oppressor of others.

I'm so glad you knew that by 'a stoner' I meant 'Sabaron' because that's EXACTLY what I meant. Be the victim, whatever blows your skirt up. I'm not the villain here.

Would you not say that physical injury is bad?

Risk management. In my daily endeavors I avoid physical injury, yet I still suffer from various issues and ailments from the past. I don't let it bother me or slow me down. If you can't handle it , stay safe. My problems don't stupid me up, alter my perception of reality, make me think it's OK to not shower on a daily basis, or anything like that. I may favor an arm or leg, garner some sympathy, whatever, but that's about it.

Besides, the risk of physical injury is inherant throughout your entire life. Who does that stop from living it? When you can avoid certain risks you do, so why should that be different when it comes to marijuana use?

This is possibly one of the most despicable and down-right fucking mean things I've ever read. You are really coming off as a great person here buddy.

Be realistic, you can llive life being a walking pity-party or you can man-up about your problems. Sight loss probably wasn't the best example: http://www.glaucoma.org/treating/medical_marijua.html.

Don't you find it interesting that, even though I use pot, I'm not some "retard" or "mindless zombie," and that I am able to refute all of your arguments without lowering myself to childish name calling and stereotypical insults?

You haven't refuted anything, just commented mindless zombie style.

[Ameroth]

Re: Marijuana

Uh-huh, let's all tell each other to do pointless things. That's pretty much what I expect from a stoner. If anything, I'm being dislikeful, which is quite an accomplishment seeing as how these people degrade our society

There we go again with the unfounded insults on a personal level. Sabaron never said that he currently smokes pot, or that he even uses it occasionally. He mentioned that he has tried it though, and therefore you label him a stoner. It seems that you are afraid that all the propaganda you have had shoved down your throat could maybe be wrong, and that maybe people who use drugs aren't just mindless idiots without a future. Tell me, how does someone who smokes pot "degrade our society" anymore than your bigotry and prejudice?

Yes, if it's bad you should generally stay away from it. Why would sports be illegal? There's only risk of physical injury...

Would you not say that physical injury is bad?

Can't see very well? Buy a cane. Don't be so pathetic.

This is possibly one of the most despicable and down-right fucking mean things I've ever read. You are really coming off as a great person here buddy.

Marijuana's obvious damage to the personality, and mental stability

Please cite a source for this claim.


Don't you find it interesting that, even though I use pot, I'm not some "retard" or "mindless zombie," and that I am able to refute all of your arguments without lowering myself to childish name calling and stereotypical insults?

[Sabaron]

Re: Marijuana

Uh-huh, let's all tell each other to do pointless things. That's pretty much what I expect from a stoner. If anything, I'm being dislikeful, which is quite an accomplishment seeing as how these people degrade our society. Jews, gays, blacks, and women, as you put it, don't. It's hard to see the box itself when you're on the inside.



Nobody cares. Really. You don't care either, it's just on your checklist of things to bring up to give marijuana some credit.

There you go assuming again... I don't actually smoke pot (though I have). You don't have to do something to disagree with how certain people are treated. You do not deserve a moment more of my time. IMO you are a terrible person and I weep for anyone who actually encounters you in real life... I'm sure you'll grow up to be a wonderful oppressor of others.

[Caspian]

Re: Marijuana

Dak and everyone else. If you disagree on the matter, thats fine. However, [i[do not[/i] resort to name calling and degradation. I'm trying to cut some slack but its becoming increasingly difficult. Insulting others because you have a difference of opinion will not be tolerated.

As for the subject at hand, the agrument for legalizing it or saying its ok b/c of its uses medically really doesn't hold water. Morphine is a powerful drug used in hospital settings, but that doesn't mean its not dangerous in recreational use.
Honestly, I'm not your father, do what you want. Personally, I've had too many friends who've completely fucked up their lives because of the drug and that alone is reason enough for me to stay away from it.
Also, everyone needs to realize that while you may be able to smoke weed and not have it affect your life, most people have had experiences that are in direct opposite of that. You may be the exception that proves the rule, but I've never known anyone that was able to keep those two parts of their lives separate and you have to understand that that is where the stereotypes come from.

[DakAttack]

Re: Marijuana

I will refer you to replace every reference to "pot-smoker" in your post with your choice of the following: Jew, Gay, Black, Woman, etc. You are being unnecessarily hateful, and you fail to understand the mechanisms of personal addiction. You should have a chat with a psychologist who studies these types of behaviors--you might find it enlightening.

Uh-huh, let's all tell each other to do pointless things. That's pretty much what I expect from a stoner. If anything, I'm being dislikeful, which is quite an accomplishment seeing as how these people degrade our society. Jews, gays, blacks, and women, as you put it, don't. It's hard to see the box itself when you're on the inside.

Also, how come everyone always skips over the industrial portions of my argument and focuses on the drug aspect? I intended for the industrial portion to be of equal weight, and yet...ignored completely...

Does that mean that you agree that we should be able to grow industrial hemp for product, or is it immoral to make paper and textiles from a plant which also produces a drug?

Nobody cares. Really. You don't care either, it's just on your checklist of things to bring up to give marijuana some credit.

[Sabaron]

Re: Marijuana

None of us drink beer.

A member of the Temperant Society, this will be my last post on this subject as it is basically a pointless topic every time it comes up

Yes, if it's bad you should generally stay away from it.

There is a great difference between should and must. Making things illegal is not a good solution.

Marijuana's obvious damage to the personality, and mental stability far outweight any kind of retarded benefit.

First of all, I completely disagree with this idea--I really think you have less experience with the culture than you put on. Second, I never said there was a benefit--merely that it is a voluntary recreational past-time.

Don't want to eat? If you want to live you will. Stomach issues? Sit on the toilet and have your mommy get you some Pepto. Can't see very well? Buy a cane. Don't be so pathetic.

I fail to understand the purpose of this paragraph, and the direct insult is rather...inappropriate.

I'm still earning my education, so I shouldn't have to say I've seen plenty of these people zombie through the halls trying to salvage what little brain cells they still have.

Stereotyping.

They don't even understand how they're being treated differently. They just complain about it all being unfair and the world is out to get them and the government blah blah blah. Some of them can't even get through the day without lighting up in the morning. It's a crutch for a problem that doesn't exist, and it's pathetic.

Everyone complains about their situation. They're no different. I didn't say that there weren't people who are addicted to it did I? What I did say is that if it weren't there it would just be something else equally ruinous. You cannot save those who are doomed, only they can save themselves. Watch "Intervention". Don't call them pathetic, you don't know them and it's unfair of you to denegrate others in this manner.

I will refer you to replace every reference to "pot-smoker" in your post with your choice of the following: Jew, Gay, Black, Woman, etc. You are being unnecessarily hateful, and you fail to understand the mechanisms of personal addiction. You should have a chat with a psychologist who studies these types of behaviors--you might find it enlightening.

Also, how come everyone always skips over the industrial portions of my argument and focuses on the drug aspect? I intended for the industrial portion to be of equal weight, and yet...ignored completely...

Does that mean that you agree that we should be able to grow industrial hemp for product, or is it immoral to make paper and textiles from a plant which also produces a drug?

[DakAttack]

Re: Marijuana

The only thing that's bullshit is Penn and Teller's career. I'm not even sure what they're arguing. They admit drugs are bad, and then they interview people who say drugs are good, and some that say drugs are bad, then bitch about the war on drugs.

[Hantz]

Re: Marijuana

I haven't seen this show in ages, but it was pretty entertaining. This doesn't necessarily reflect my views, but here it is none the less:


[youtube]8MZCAnRnsBw[/youtube]


[youtube]sb77ffMDDU0[/youtube]


[youtube]sN69fS5aAN8[/youtube]

[DakAttack]

Re: Marijuana

Do you have any friends who use it?

Had

Are they any worse off than the ones who drink beer?

None of us drink beer.

Any friends that watch TV every waking non-work moment of their lives? Perhaps you know someone who plays video games for inordinately long times...

No and no.

Well, to take this point of view, you seem to think that everything "bad for you" should be made illegal. Therefore, all people should be forced to watch only educational documentaries and training videos pertinent to their particular life station. All forms of gaming and sports should be illegal. Being engaged in a sport of any fashion subjects you to injury. Obviously, being in the military is also not good for your health... Let's get rid of that too.

Yes, if it's bad you should generally stay away from it. Why would sports be illegal? There's only risk of physical injury, something that'll heal over a few days or weeks, possibly months or years depending on the severity of the injury. The obvious benefits far outweight the risks.

Marijuana's obvious damage to the personality, and mental stability far outweight any kind of retarded benefit. Don't want to eat? If you want to live you will. Stomach issues? Sit on the toilet and have your mommy get you some Pepto. Can't see very well? Buy a cane. Don't be so pathetic.

I'm still earning my education, so I shouldn't have to say I've seen plenty of these people zombie through the halls trying to salvage what little brain cells they still have. They don't even understand how they're being treated differently. They just complain about it all being unfair and the world is out to get them and the government blah blah blah. Some of them can't even get through the day without lighting up in the morning. It's a crutch for a problem that doesn't exist, and it's pathetic.

[Sabaron]

Re: Marijuana

The effects are obvious. Some people deal with them better than others, but legalizing it just because other substances that are bad for you are legal is taking a step backwards. Alchohol can be bad for you in large quantities, junk food is bad even in small quantities, and from what I've seen it doesn't take much marijuana to mess you up for life.

Well, to take this point of view, you seem to think that everything "bad for you" should be made illegal. Therefore, all people should be forced to watch only educational documentaries and training videos pertinent to their particular life station. All forms of gaming and sports should be illegal. Being engaged in a sport of any fashion subjects you to injury. Obviously, being in the military is also not good for your health... Let's get rid of that too.

The above is a bit overdone, but the point is, that sometimes we need to take a "legal step backwards" because when we stepped forward in the first place, what we did was wrong. If you make a mistake and continue along the same line, you end up with an entire philosophy of government which is founded upon an initial bad notion, and if what you've seen of Marijuana use involves propaganda from various sources you should re-examine your sources. Do you have any friends who use it? Are they any worse off than the ones who drink beer? Any friends that watch TV every waking non-work moment of their lives? Perhaps you know someone who plays video games for inordinately long times... Anything you do too much of can f up your life. I'm not really certain what you mean by "it doesn't take much marijuana to mess you up for life." Did you have a friend who hit a pipe, went insane, and then killed 6 people? I would prefer a specific example to a sweeping generalization. I know a lot of people who lead otherwise normal lives who occasionally partake of "The Reefer". I know people (mostly in college) who spent every last penny they had on it and failed because of it. I know people who use it responsibly (they say that in beer commercials) and people who use it irresponsibly. Both kinds of people occur in basically every form of recreation known to man....

"Dude... don't you think you've had enough Chess?"

"F you man, get off my back! Pawn to Queen's Rook 4!"

[Ameroth]

Re: Marijuana

but if you keep trying to change people's opinion on the subject all you will acomplish are pointless fights.

I have no interest in changing yours, or anyone else's, opinion on any subject matter. I do, however, wish to eliminate the stereotypes and discrimination drug users face. Whether you agree with someone's desire to take a drug has little effect on the situation. Drug users a going to get high whether you approve or not.

I do not wish force my opinion down other people's throats, but merely to present it in a mature manner that can be debated with some civility. Using stereotypical words like 'stoner' and 'burnout' show a real lack of respect for other people's opinion. Just because you disagree with someone's idea, doesn't mean you have to instantly oust them and not give their opinions a minimal amount of respect.

Moving on to recreation, remember that even if you think it's "bad for you", that the government is not supposed to be slapping your hand every time you pound down a bag of greasy potato chips, so why should they when you smoke up?

This is possibly the smartest thing I've read posted in this thread so far. The government makes laws to protect our individual humanistic rights, such as right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The government should have no control on the substances I, or anyone else, choose to take.

----

"If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."
-Terence McKenna

[Hantz]

Re: Marijuana

So, uh, hmm. What does everybody think of the Immigration reform debate?


I don't think minds are being changed on either side of the OP, if that's even the point, but for the love of all things holy, I'm only goofing about the Immigration thing.

[DakAttack]

Re: Marijuana

The US Government is a business. Once the local and national law enforcement agencies curb the inflow of illegal drugs from other countries it'll be profitable for the government to make marijuana legal. Sike.

The effects are obvious. Some people deal with them better than others, but legalizing it just because other substances that are bad for you are legal is taking a step backwards. Alchohol can be bad for you in large quantities, junk food is bad even in small quantities, and from what I've seen it doesn't take much marijuana to mess you up for life. It's like stepping out the back door of a concert and realizing there's no handle on your side of the door as it slams shut, except the realization never comes.

[Sabaron]

Re: Marijuana

Locking the thread only allows you to be content with not actually listening to the other posters on this topic. Instead of requesting a lock (thus effectively preventing the dissemination of otherwise previously sited thread-appropriate information), why not just stop clicking on the thread? The only reason you'd want it locked is to "lock in" your opinion and prevent others from responding.

The OP post is not particularly thoughtful or interesting, but there's plenty of interesting material in the thread.

Let's start here:

I think the largest road block to someone respecting your choice is that your choice is illegal.

Just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily indicate a moral wrongness. Speeding is illegal for instance, but it has been statistically shown that people who travel at a higher rate of speed than the surrounding traffic (within reason) actually have fewer accidents. Therefore, in this respect speeding is actually good but we couldn't do it if society wasn't set on the idea that it's "wrong". Sometimes it's good to tell people things are wrong just to modify the demographics of opinion to create favorable situations for government.

I do agree (somewhat) with the position that marijuana has "no positive benefit" in that recreational use of the product doesn't really make you a better cog-drone for the corporate machine. However, there is a darker side to the illegality of this particular plant, and this is one that I, my family (including my staunchly temperant grandparents) and friends are completely opposed to. That is the industrial use of the plant for fiber product. This is illegal as well, but why? There are two industries in this country that are generally responsible for this: Cotton and Paper. Both clothing fiber and paper can be produced from the hemp plant (cheaply) and hemp has an extremely broad growing area (e.g. everywhere, that's why the call it "weed"). This would allow cheap, wide-spread competition in these markets.

Moving on to recreation, remember that even if you think it's "bad for you", that the government is not supposed to be slapping your hand every time you pound down a bag of greasy potato chips, so why should they when you smoke up? They don't punish you for drinking or smoking (cigarettes)--they just tax you. The liquor and tobacco industries have a vested interest in keeping less dangerous competitive recreational products off the market. Plus, as above, the plant is in fact a weed which means that you could grow it at home if you wanted and that really puts a damper on the tax machine... Therefore, it's illegal.

Illegality does not equate to Morality (e.g. Abortion). It is a disservice to the idea of personal liberty to suggest that a person may not select their own mode of recreation as long as it does not harm others--regardless of whether or not you personally like smoking pot.