Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

[Karinya]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

When I leveled Thf, I would SATA onto anyone who had balls enough to stand still behind the mob

When I leveled War, I was the one who had balls enough to stand behind the mob so a Thf could SATA.

The initial SATA pre 60 should always land on the tank. You need to set up a first voke scenario and have players able to line up quickly and efficiently. If people in my PT couldn't do that, then to hell with them I'll SATA whoever I could. But in good pts, the initial SATA and whatever tricks the tank through out after it landed was always enough to throw out another SATA mid fight, and unless we were overhunting, the mob would be dying/dead at that point.

That's the way it used to be done, before ToAU. Few people are willing, or perhaps even able, to apply that kind of coordination today.

Main SAM have Seigan from 35 - it's only /SAMs who have to wait until 70. So Seigan+TE, first voke, SATA on tank, then Hasso and switch back to DD is actually fairly painless, if your THF and tank have the skill to handle it.

BLUs also have enough ways of keeping themselves alive to make a good first voker, if they're willing.

[Neverslip]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

When I leveled Thf, I would SATA onto anyone who had balls enough to stand still behind the mob

When I leveled War, I was the one who had balls enough to stand behind the mob so a Thf could SATA.

I like the cut of your jib, good sir...

I too SATA'd anyone ballsy enough to stand behind the mob... and I'd place my SAM readily behind the mob to see if the Thf's I was pt'n with were ballsy enough to SATA me

****************************
Something I'd like....

Make BLM more enticing for mid-high level partying... Sux they are expected at every end-game event, yet shafted in trying to grow the job in a timely and less frustrating fashion. Mines' only 17, I simply feel bad for them.

[Sekighara]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Well because I really don't care to much about my own well being I will let a sata go on my dark when the tanks hate tools are ready. But normally when I do invite a thf, I plan on being first voke take a few hits and then the sata goes off the tank. And from then on we are a normal party. I am only up to 51 right now but I did it on my 70 I had before i quit. Mostly it is just the intial two hits that have to be taken and the thf to be paying attention instead of bsing waiting for the last bit of tp because they just refuse to save it. So a War/nin would be first voke and then tank has it. SATA recast comes up war vokes and ws and then sata ws. If i remember correctly there is a powerful sc that can be done at 60 ranges opening up for magic bursts. These are old school strats but when I gather a party they are willing to attempt what ever plan I have.

[Ziero]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

When I leveled Thf, I would SATA onto anyone who had balls enough to stand still behind the mob

When I leveled War, I was the one who had balls enough to stand behind the mob so a Thf could SATA.

The initial SATA pre 60 should always land on the tank. You need to set up a first voke scenario and have players able to line up quickly and efficiently. If people in my PT couldn't do that, then to hell with them I'll SATA whoever I could. But in good pts, the initial SATA and whatever tricks the tank through out after it landed was always enough to throw out another SATA mid fight, and unless we were overhunting, the mob would be dying/dead at that point.

[Nuriko]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

I had a PT in the Citadel basement where I was being SATAed on to as SAM ... but then, that was the second SATA, the first went on to the PLD (who I was setting up with first voke) and there usually wasn't time or need for a repeat.

[Vyuru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

THF can do that with anyone though really.

Technically they can, but not really.

Ideally for SATAing onto someone, and at 60+ just TA alone, you either want to do it onto the tank, someone who can shed hate, or someone who can avoid all the damage the mob will toss their way. The only jobs that come to mind that can do that are Pld and Nin for tanking, Drg and Bst(jug pets only though) for hate shedding, and people who are /nin and /sam for damage avoidance.

However, Utsu: Ni and Seigan/TE are not available until lvl 74, so Thfs are restricted in who they can safely TA onto, which is basically tanks until they are paired up with a Drg at lvl 50, and I have no idea when Bsts get their hate transfer to the jug pet ability.

Yes, Thf can still TA onto other people, but it would be foolish. How many Wars or Drks are going to want to be SATA'd onto in the lvl 40 range say?

Yes, you could point out that anyone with just Utsu: Ichi alone might be able to handle it, but against a good SATA+Viper Bite, or just plain SATA, plus all their original enmity? Six shadows, the original 3 up and then a recast when two shadows are used, bringing you to 6, are all they are going to get. If the mob was enfeebled they may get more, however few parties bother to enfeeble nowadays. Even with a mob inflicted with blind/slow/paralyze, I see far too many people with Utsu: Ichi alone spending half of the fight trying to regain shadows.

So the reality of the situation is that Thf are limited in who they can SATA onto, which brings me back to my earlier point that a full up ninja, who at 37+ can use Utsu: Ich and Ni, can quite easily survive being SATA'd onto, which other jobs can't. Pld would work as well, but unlikely to see a Pld in a DD/SATA buddy role. It is also quite uncommon for their to be two tanks in the party, let alone for a Thf to be willing to bounce SATA and tanking roles like that, so by and large you won't see it.

So no, I wouldn't say that Thf could SA onto just about anyone.

[Akashimo]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Those weren't the golden days because that only meant that more gimps would be allowed in the alliance to make good thfs look bad. That might have been the golden days for Mr FulltimeDragonharnessandaflegs, but for good thfs, those were dark, dark times.

Were for my eyes, no gimp geared thfs as I've been seeing lately. Back then majority knew how to use Trick Attack properly -.-; Now I see some that uses it as Sneak Attack and not behind someone -_-;

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Stealth just lowers an enemy's detection range IIRC.

---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

They did, it's called SA & TA, players just don't invite thiefs into parties much, from what I have seen lately, and when they do no one will work with them to use their abilities to the fullest. Don't blame SE for the player's habits.

THF can do that with anyone though really. I meant actually giving NIN a new JA or trait (that ability to drop hate then get it right back they talked about would also be interesting)

[Durahansolo]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

If Ninja was based on a more realistic historical role, it'd probably be able to use Tonko and Monomi to form some sort of sneak attack critical on the mob (Which would possibly be similar to the Hide JA). Ninja does have that one job trait that makes you less visible or heard by (Don't remember which, been so long since I've played NIN.) enemies or something, but does that even work?

Edit>> I Really stopped reading this thread a few pages back, when the whole Job Realism topic came about, so if somebody already said this, my apologies.

[Ziero]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Yes because Seigan is ever so reliable. Hi2u frequently taking 1 hit -. - (and yes I macro in Saotome Haidate) SAM still dies pretty fast once hate is on it against IT and stronger.

But they're still abilities that put the Sam face to face with the mob directly in the line of fire. Exactly what you asked for.

And I'll point out Deadliest Warrior again. As much as I hated the episode (because it was painfully obvious what was going to happen as Ninjas are not true warriors) the Spartan beat out the Ninja very badly with about a 66% take of the wins. One on one in a straight up fight, the trained soldier creams the assassin.

There's nothing wrong with Ninja's tool set. It's the drawing attention to itself that's just silly. Say what ya want but that just kills the fantasy for me right there. Incidentally, so glad I have BST 75 so I can solo most of my levels (I ain't tanking on NIN and that's that. I like to level it in stages when I can afford shuriken and whack stuff with friends) It would make more sense IMO for NIN to have the hate tools THF does but then THF wouldn't have anything to bring to the table other than TH.

Unless SE could come up with some new stuff for the two jobs to work together doing sneak shit. Now that would be cool.

I love how you keep complaining about "historical accuracy" then mention The Deadliest Warrior as some sort of reference. Do you realize that show has absolutely no bearing of any kind of historical basis and is just a bunch of guys showing off weird weapons against blood filled meat sacks? Especially seeing as the only form of measurement they decided the winners of each match up was how effective a weapon was at killing someone in one hit. Seriously, stop bringing that crap up in an argument where you're bitching about historical accuracy because that garbage show is far from accurate about anything.

And again, FFXI Ninja's aren't based on actual, factual Ninja tactics and attacks, because it's hard to have someone dress up like a beastmen's gardener, wait a few days, and then stab him in his sleep, often getting themselves killed in the process. Because that's how Ninja's worked. They were spies and assassins often sent on suicide missions to get what they needed. Very rarely did they wear black very rarely did they carry actual weapons.

No, in FFXI, Ninjas are based on the way they've been portrayed in every previous Final Fantasy game since FFI. High speed attackers who often throw stuff and have "fake" elemental spells (throwing elemental balls to cast magic), using magic to increase their evasion and absorb attacks (because they've always had Blink), and most commonly of all, being able to wield two weapons at once. This is 20 years of the same concepts used over and over, and not just in FFXI, but in every major anime, comic, cartoon and movie about ninjas.

Historical accuracy means nothing.

I cry on the inside when I see a thf dding full time in dragon harness, subligar and hands, relic feet, legs and head.
=/ Thf had its golden days when SE didn't say you only need 1 th4 in the ally =/

Those weren't the golden days because that only meant that more gimps would be allowed in the alliance to make good thfs look bad. That might have been the golden days for Mr FulltimeDragonharnessandaflegs, but for good thfs, those were dark, dark times.

Edit: Oh god, how did I miss Mal's comment's about Thf. Hate tools? Trick Attack and Collab/Accomp are the only things a Thf is good for now? Seriously? Just stop while you're behind because you do not know what you are talking about.

[Ketaru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

There's nothing wrong with Ninja's tool set. It's the drawing attention to itself that's just silly. Say what ya want but that just kills the fantasy for me right there. Incidentally, so glad I have BST 75 so I can solo most of my levels (I ain't tanking on NIN and that's that. I like to level it in stages when I can afford shuriken and whack stuff with friends) It would make more sense IMO for NIN to have the hate tools THF does but then THF wouldn't have anything to bring to the table other than TH.

Once again, nobody thinks you're on the moral high ground for sticking to your principles about what jobs do. Like saying a party desperately needs a healer and their only option is a seeking BLM/WHM and the BLM/WHM would rather solo for slower EXP simply because "nuking is the right thing to do." Ziero presented a perfectly good reason why NIN is more in-line with the idea of Ninjas than you're giving it credit for.

[Akashimo]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

They did, it's called SA & TA, players just don't invite thiefs into parties much, from what I have seen lately, and when they do no one will work with them to use their abilities to the fullest. Don't blame SE for the player's habits.

I cry on the inside when I see a thf dding full time in dragon harness, subligar and hands, relic feet, legs and head.
=/ Thf had its golden days when SE didn't say you only need 1 th4 in the ally =/

Frankly I'd lump ninja in the same boat as red mage, both are too good at what they do and need to be handled carefully when given boosts and other stuff. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't get new stuff, just that it needs to be carefully done and lack of new stuff does not entitle them to getting new things.

Only thing I could think reasonable for Ninja, is a shuriken weapon skill or a 5 min ability to increase parrying rate while casting ninjutsu which also functions like shield mastery with a tp gain effect for successful parry. Only downside penatly to it would it take 2 or 3 tools to cast a spell instead of 1

[Vyuru]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Can we please stop with the historically inaccurate historical stuff? This is a game, a fantasy game, it has no bearing on reality. Also if you're going to bring up historical accuracy you need to reevaluate what you consider a reliable source.

Unless SE could come up with some new stuff for the two jobs to work together doing sneak shit. Now that would be cool.

They did, it's called SA & TA, players just don't invite thiefs into parties much, from what I have seen lately, and when they do no one will work with them to use their abilities to the fullest. Don't blame SE for the player's habits.


Anyway, on the topic of buffs to ninja just because they haven't gotten a new shiny in awhile doesn't mean that they deserve something. Yes yes, I understand that new toys and shinys are nice, and at some point should be given, but if they are balanced then they really shouldn't be getting boosts to combat or whatever because that has a tendency to make them unbalanced.

Frankly I'd lump ninja in the same boat as red mage, both are too good at what they do and need to be handled carefully when given boosts and other stuff. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't get new stuff, just that it needs to be carefully done and lack of new stuff does not entitle them to getting new things.

[Malacite]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

Also, Overwhelm, Third Eye and Seigan say hi.

Yes because Seigan is ever so reliable. Hi2u frequently taking 1 hit -. - (and yes I macro in Saotome Haidate) SAM still dies pretty fast once hate is on it against IT and stronger.

And I'll point out Deadliest Warrior again. As much as I hated the episode (because it was painfully obvious what was going to happen as Ninjas are not true warriors) the Spartan beat out the Ninja very badly with about a 66% take of the wins. One on one in a straight up fight, the trained soldier creams the assassin.

There's nothing wrong with Ninja's tool set. It's the drawing attention to itself that's just silly. Say what ya want but that just kills the fantasy for me right there. Incidentally, so glad I have BST 75 so I can solo most of my levels (I ain't tanking on NIN and that's that. I like to level it in stages when I can afford shuriken and whack stuff with friends) It would make more sense IMO for NIN to have the hate tools THF does but then THF wouldn't have anything to bring to the table other than TH.

Unless SE could come up with some new stuff for the two jobs to work together doing sneaky shit. Now that would be cool.

[Karinya]

Re: Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

The point is, the sets you mentioned are all very lacklustre.

Not every set can be the best in every slot - or, indeed, any slot, when you have more sets to choose from than there are equipment slots.

If you keep making gear absolutely better, you run into very serious problems - devaluing old content, people getting trapped where they don't have enough gear to contribute usefully to the content that would get them better gear, etc. SE has avoided that trap mainly by not letting their gear keep increasing in power like a Dragonball Z character.

Other than Salvage gear, the best slots for ninjas are still gear from years ago. AF body, haidate, fuma, dusk gloves, PC, suppa, brutal, rajas, snipers, senj, etc. with a little shura, haub macroed in for WS's. The most recent additions to gear being the walmart turban, perdu blade, cerb mantle.

Brutal is from limbus - weren't you just saying limbus didn't have much for ninjas? Anyway, some of the best gear for everyone is from years ago (especially if you *also* exclude salvage, AV, and PW - i.e. the most difficult to get pieces of the last 3 expansions).

AF+1 is mostly junk, the hands are nice for a WS macro, the body is slightly better than the standard AF but arguably not worth 30 coins. Relic is complete junk other than the body, again, the hands are nice but only at nighttime. Shura is by and large the same as relic, namely a nice body and head for WS macro. Dusk hands are the only useful piece out of the set as you'd choose fuma sune-ate over them. Pahluwam, Denali and Enkidu are inferior to the gear I listed.

Unsurprisingly, since they come from regular assault, nyzul, and lower tier ZNMs. You *are* familiar with the idea that the quality of gear is related to the difficulty of the content, right?

The Hachiryu set is nigh on impossible to obtain as I'm not aware of many LS's on any of the servers who defeat Pandy Warden with any regularity.

Ah, I see you are. Well, yeah, if you rule out the best gear from recent expansions (salvage was already excluded by the previous post and I didn't see you mention Ninurta's among the best NIN gear), then recent expansions don't have any mindblowingly awesome gear. Duh.

Now, as for your scholar tears, I don't see how one class being screwed over on gear has any connection to another in much the same boat.

They're not the same boat. Ninjas have literally more than twice as many options. Which is the best is defined by relation to the others, so they can't all be the best. But you *have* them, and accordingly, have a wide variety of content you can get *some* useful gear in, even if it's not all optimal. Not everyone has the gil to buy everything on your list, let alone gets all the ex stuff on their way to/immediately at 75.

Simple fact is S-E seem to be really terrible at producing gear sets that have a use beyond more than one or two pieces for many classes, ninja included.

Not at all. They choose not to make each new set of gear 9000% more awesome than the last because of what it would do to game balance. It's a good thing you're not on the dev team or we really would have Dragonball Z power progression and people would be soloing Kirin by now.

Additionally, they seem to think it's okay to drop sets/items in events that only benefit a few classes at best. Take a look at Limbus, as I mentioned it earlier. Homam gear, which has really nice stats for a ninja which we can't use, is equippable by a Blue Mage. Now, take a look at Nashira gear, again this would be really nice for scholars but they're denied this set but look... a Blue Mage can equip this too.

Yeah, I agree that it's kind of unfair that BLU gets both limbus boss sets. But compared to other problems, I don't consider it a big deal. They need twice as many points/twice as much time to actually *get* them, anyway (just like someone with at least one homam job and at least one nashira job). And they can't wear both at once in the same slot, which is always a limiting factor on gear. Limbus benefits all jobs - both in AF+1, and in the many ancient beastcoin accessories - which is more than you can say for salvage or kings or, well, lots of stuff.