December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

[Malacite]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Personally I'd kill for both Mystic and Geo.

I just wants my sword magic


>.> and Armando's not the only one who's been playing since NA release.



I'm hoping that they will start to gradually step up the difficulty for WotG. They still haven't been able to strike a proper balance yet;

CoP really was too hard in some respects. The fights were just fine, but all that running around the world was just aggravating. 8-3 was probably the most brutal mission ever > . <;

Conversely, ToAU had those artificial time restraints and most of the BC's were a total fucking joke up to Talacca Cove. They haven't made as epic a story since either. ToAU got really good towards the end but still didn't have that epic feel CoP did (I blame the lack of Prishe and Sehl'teus^^)

WotG if I'm not mistaken is being handled by the CoP team and they are doing a very good job of building the suspense thus far. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was blown away by that CS you get after beating the last BC. Oh the possibilities...

Basically I'm just hoping they don't drop the ball on this one. Campaign is already getting very stale and I swear if they make the end game area Xarc or Zvahl rather than something cool like Tavnazia or inside Atomos... well, I'll be disappointed (can't really kill them now can I... or wait....)

[eticket109]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

They've been saying they'll fix old content once ToAU is done for years, and people bitched them out. Now, ToAU is done, and they're fixing old content but people are still bitching at them. Why?

For your sake, I hope you never get stuck working a customer service job.

[Ziero]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

Personally I'd kill for both Mystic and Geo.

I just wants my sword magic

>.> and Armando's not the only one who's been playing since NA release.

I'm hoping that they will start to gradually step up the difficulty for WotG. They still haven't been able to strike a proper balance yet;

CoP really was too hard in some respects. The fights were just fine, but all that running around the world was just aggravating. 8-3 was probably the most brutal mission ever > . <;

Conversely, ToAU had those artificial time restraints and most of the BC's were a total fucking joke up to Talacca Cove. They haven't made as epic a story since either. ToAU got really good towards the end but still didn't have that epic feel CoP did (I blame the lack of Prishe and Sehl'teus^^)

WotG if I'm not mistaken is being handled by the CoP team and they are doing a very good job of building the suspense thus far. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was blown away by that CS you get after beating the last BC. Oh the possibilities...

Basically I'm just hoping they don't drop the ball on this one. Campaign is already getting very stale and I swear if they make the end game area Xarc or Zvahl rather than something cool like Tavnazia or inside Atomos... well, I'll be disappointed (can't really kill them now can I... or wait....)

Actually, I thought ToAU had some amazing CS and overall story concept. A bit predictable at times, but definately a step up from CoP's CSs. But WotG by far has the best CS of any expansion, simply mind blowing considering this is an MMORPG, which aren't exactly known for their story lines or CS. But as far as WotG endgame, my money is that Walk of Echos plays a big part of it.

For your sake, I hope you never get stuck working a customer service job.

Oh I know that it happens, and that it happens all the time. I just like to point it out to get people who do it to think twice about it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and I'll be damned if I don't try to stop it!

[Lunaryn]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

As far as whether SE can or cannot do fixes and content...

I get the distinct sense from what info they do leak out and from the questionable quality of some of the game programming... that while they may have had multiple programmers involved in the initial design, I get the distinct feeling that only one member of the dev team is an actual programmer who writes actual code for the game. The others obviously cover various other areas of design, but I get the sense that when it comes to actually implementing what gets designed, that's falling to one person, and that person can't run around fixing all sorts of bugs and oversights while they're assisting the rest of the dev team in implementing new content. They'd need to hire another actual full-fledged programmer to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Alternately, maybe particular sections of the program are the exclusive purview of a particular programmer. I just don't get the sense that they have multiple coders working on the same code.

Heck, sometimes I think they should just outsource the UI design to the Windower team. Or hell, just outsource it to anyone. It'd be a LOT better off for having its own design group rather than being an afterthought of an over-stretched dev team. That Windower Lite is a hundred times preferable to SE's windowed implementation when they both arguably implement the exact same thing is pretty good evidence of the problems with the latter approach. Simple, boring, under-the-hood stuff that makes a difference between a smooth user experience and a horrendously clunky and inconvenient one; SE could get it right, if they'd put the effort into it, but as far as they're concerned, since it works at all it's done.

In short, SE's MMO dev operation strikes me as too small to give a lot of critical design areas the attention they deserve...

Honestly, I think for something like this, there ought to be completely separate dev teams for content and for infrastructure, at the least.

[Raydeus]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

They've been saying they'll fix old content once ToAU is done for years, and people bitched them out. Now, ToAU is done, and they're fixing old content but people are still bitching at them. Why?

You are probably right, changing something like the lvl for outpost teleports from 20 to (gasp!) 10 would've taken so much time it would've interfered with their schedule and posibly delayed CoP and the rest of the updates by months or maybe years.

I'm just glad they did take the time to change the little icons that appear in the description of some items so they didn't look the same as others. Now that's what I call major high-priority issues.

Armando has been playing for some 4 years straight, I myself started this game before the NA PS2 release too. Some people never get to "your" point. I "meh"-d at this update info because it was meh-worthy changes. Even if these changes were added years ago, they'd still be meh-worthy to me. They're minor changes that won't really hurt anything, but won't really change anything either. I'd rather see the meat and potatos of an update rather then the side of corn that these types of changes are.

You didn't get it. Also, you need to lighten up.

And lastly I'd rather see the cook take the time to prepare my meal properly, even if it takes 5 more minutes for me to get the next dish.

[Kailea]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

You are probably right, changing something like the lvl for outpost teleports from 20 to (gasp!) 10 would've taken so much time it would've interfered with their schedule and posibly delayed CoP and the rest of the updates by months or maybe years.

I'm just glad they did take the time to change the little icons that appear in the description of some items so they didn't look the same as others. Now that's what I call major high-priority issues.




You didn't get it. Also, you need to lighten up.

And lastly I'd rather see the cook take the time to prepare my meal properly, even if it takes 5 more minutes for me to get the next dish.

You cant just make changes, even as "simple" as that, with out doing alot of research and watching players

MMORPGs are delicate, and you cant just change stuff any time you want, things have to be looked into and tested over and over, to make sure its going to go well with the world.

[Malacite]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

I'm still wondering if they're going to go all Crono Trigger on us with the Walk of Echos...

[Ziero]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

I get the distinct sense from what info they do leak out and from the questionable quality of some of the game programming... that while they may have had multiple programmers involved in the initial design, I get the distinct feeling that only one member of the dev team is an actual programmer who writes actual code for the game. The others obviously cover various other areas of design, but I get the sense that when it comes to actually implementing what gets designed, that's falling to one person, and that person can't run around fixing all sorts of bugs and oversights while they're assisting the rest of the dev team in implementing new content. They'd need to hire another actual full-fledged programmer to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Different people program different aspects of the game. One person works on monsters and ai, another doesn't enviorments or CS etc etc.

Heck, sometimes I think they should just outsource the UI design to the Windower team. Or hell, just outsource it to anyone. It'd be a LOT better off for having its own design group rather than being an afterthought of an over-stretched dev team. That Windower Lite is a hundred times preferable to SE's windowed implementation when they both arguably implement the exact same thing is pretty good evidence of the problems with the latter approach. Simple, boring, under-the-hood stuff that makes a difference between a smooth user experience and a horrendously clunky and inconvenient one; SE could get it right, if they'd put the effort into it, but as far as they're concerned, since it works at all it's done.

SE likes to keep things mysterious and promote player communications. The players on the otherhand like to know everything instantly and not have to talk to any one. It's two different styles and concepts rather then anything else. Honestly, just using the built in UI, it's not all that bad. Infact I really don't have any sort of disadvantage from using it. I have no problems pressing my /recast macro or asking people in an Alliance if they're good on MP before I pull (hell I'd do that regardless of being able to see their MP or not). I don't need a minimap while I'm running, I don't need auto-dropping of crystals/junk, I don't need exact calculations of my DPS, Exp per hour or the mobs actual HP%. There's nothing "wrong" with SE's interface, it's just that people want things easier/faster, so they go outside of official sources.

You are probably right, changing something like the lvl for outpost teleports from 20 to (gasp!) 10 would've taken so much time it would've interfered with their schedule and posibly delayed CoP and the rest of the updates by months or maybe years.

The original levels for the OP warps were set at what they were on purpose. There was no need to fix them for RotZ/CoP. But after the easy of travel introduced in ToAU there was no need to keep them so restrictive.

I'm just glad they did take the time to change the little icons that appear in the description of some items so they didn't look the same as others. Now that's what I call major high-priority issues.

Because those are such major changes that they get their own update teasers right?

You didn't get it. Also, you need to lighten up.

Get what? That minor inconveniences both you? Cause I got that. It's you who don't seem to get that these little things that bother you don't bother everyone. While you say you reached that point by "playing for so long waiting for SE to do their job" others who have been playing just as long or longer will never reach that point. Mainly because we realize SE *is* doing their job and always has been. But no matter what they do people will complain.

And lastly I'd rather see the cook take the time to prepare my meal properly, even if it takes 5 more minutes for me to get the next dish.

And while the chef is spending more time fixing your meal to your exact specifications, everyone else is stuck waiting even longer just to get theirs.

[Raydeus]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

You cant just make changes, even as "simple" as that, with out doing alot of research and watching players

MMORPGs are delicate, and you cant just change stuff any time you want, things have to be looked into and tested over and over, to make sure its going to go well with the world.

Ok then, tell me how do you think allowing older players to get to a place like Valkurm dunes faster to xp would require such research. Or how would that affect the delicate balance of things compared to having to waste time riding a chocobo there for 20+ mins or having to shout for a teleport.

Keep in mind what I said before, you need Rank 3 (and visit all nations in the process) and do the supply quest to get to teleport to that outpost. Which probably means you've already been to that XP camp at least a couple of times with different jobs.


PS > I use the outpost example because it's one of the easiest to explain.

[Lunaryn]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

On the one hand, I do think Raydeus is dismissing the game-balance consequences of gameplay changes a little too easily here. On the other hand, talking about the need for extensive testing and balancing is a little absurd with a company with SE's track record. In the end, they can't seem to understand the way the community thinks and operates well enough to use any other method than field-testing on the production system. Still, giving some deliberation to the consequences of what they're doing is not a bad idea, even if they are so bad at doing it. If they tried every idea they ever came across in production, we could have a much worse situation with the game than we do.

[Ellipses]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

This is a bit nitpicky, but...

Keep in mind what I said before, you need Rank 3 (and visit all nations in the process) and do the supply quest to get to teleport to that outpost. Which probably means you've already been to that XP camp at least a couple of times with different jobs.

I don't know if this used to be true, but I don't think it has been for a while. Wiki doesn't list Rank as a requirement, and I'm sure I wasn't Rank 3 before I started using these. At least not this time around. I don't remember the first couple times.

[eticket109]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

There's actually some old SE interviews that say specifically why they originally chose to do it that way. They were trying to keep the adventure aspect of the game alive by making people travel there. They probably could have changed it earlier but simply didn't want to as they wanted to keep that aspect intact. The same reasoning was used with the nomad moogles in selbina and mhaura. Whether you had been there 10 times before or not didn't matter. Each time you went there on another job was supposed to be a new adventure.

Once they began to realize that the majority of the player base cares much more about the destination than they do the trip, SE slowly began to relent and make subtle changes to streamline things. This was done in effort to appease the 'I want it now' crowd and try to retain the playerbase as well as possibly make things easier for new players.

I actually applaud them on their original ideal. I've typically been more of a journey type of person though.

Also, they removed the Rank 3 requirement when they scaled back all the levels.

[Raydeus]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

I've never dismissed or diminished the need to consider the consequences of changing things, I really have no idea where people read that in my comments.

But trying to lump all changes together and make a point on all of them requiring extensive research is absurd.

Adding jobs or changing damage calculations: Major research.

Allowing players to access xp camps faster from their home town after fullfilling certain requirements, instead of wasting 20-30 minutes at a time to get there: Do they really need to ask?


With the outpost change alone the Nomad mogs in Selbina and Mhaura would've been unnecesary, actually saving time spent on that to use for development of other things.

Do they really need a 25B bailout plan to decide such things?


Edit >

This is a bit nitpicky, but...

I don't know if this used to be true, but I don't think it has been for a while. Wiki doesn't list Rank as a requirement, and I'm sure I wasn't Rank 3 before I started using these. At least not this time around. I don't remember the first couple times.

I guess they did, I didn't know that part. >_<

I actually applaud them on their original ideal. I've typically been more of a journey type of person though.

Also, they removed the Rank 3 requirement when they scaled back all the levels.

I agree with the adventure part of it. As I posted before getting there the first few times was epic. But after you got higher in lvl and had more things to do that epicness became a chore and an unneeded time sink instead.

And finally. Man...removing the Rank requirement was stupid, I didn't know that.

Way to go SE.

[Kailea]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

I've never dismissed or diminished the need to consider the consequences of changing things, I really have no idea where people read that in my comments.

But trying to lump all changes together and make a point on all of them requiring extensive research is absurd.

Adding jobs or changing damage calculations: Major research.

Allowing players to access xp camps faster from their home town after fullfilling certain requirements, instead of wasting 20-30 minutes at a time to get there: Do they really need to ask?


With the outpost change alone the Nomad mogs in Selbina and Mhaura would've been unnecesary, actually saving time spent on that to use for development of other things.

Do they really need a 25B bailout plan to decide such things?

again, to make ANY changes in a ever changing delicate world, you have to look at all aspect, and out come before making a decision, you cant just change it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: December Version Update Preview (11/17/2008)

In the end, they can't seem to understand the way the community thinks and operates well enough to use any other method than field-testing on the production system. Still, giving some deliberation to the consequences of what they're doing is not a bad idea, even if they are so bad at doing it. If they tried every idea they ever came across in production, we could have a much worse situation with the game than we do.

Well, I don't want another RNG nerf, so I'd like them to take job adjustments as seriously as they've been taking them for the last two years. They had to learn a second time with the two hander update that it was probably best to focus on a per-job basis rather than buff melees with two-handers across the board, because OOPs they made SAM god in the process. Good that they nipped it in the bud quickly, because RNGs we pissed off all over again and DW WARs and MNKs got a shot to the groin as well.

At the same time, they've made EXPing too damn easy on melees and BLMs are still forced to go out and solo. Some may put a positive spin on it and say they like soloing, but the game went the opposite way for years before that and even with the lowered resistance of SC damage, people still do not skillchain.

They lowballed mission difficulty as well. ToA wasn't hard until you got to Amnaf and Alexander. Better late than never, but it shouldn't have come that late at all. WotG missions are outright braindead so far.

So I think they're fine on job adjustments, new content and minor fixes. They do a pretty good job on gear, though the gear situation with SCH is still pretty abysmal. They really painted themselves into a corner with gear by making the job almost too good in terms of JAs. But even that is a minor concern to me.

My main concern is that with EXP and Missions, they've listened to players too much. Sadly, as far as EXP goes, there's just no going back. People would have kittens if getting EXP wasn't was easy as it was now.

But that doesn't excuse the lack of present mission difficultly. I'm fine with RoZ and CoP missions getting tweaked as most players are years past that content now, but current missions should not be as easy as they are.