XIV combat mechanics and formulas

[Etra]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Mal has it right, Task. It's read as "Increases (your) healing magic potency" and "Increases the amount of damage dealt by all (of your) attacks and the amount of HP recovered by spells." Otherwise, CONs and THMs would just stack determination and faceroll the game. Not to mention, the word "determination" even makes sense with the description I gave of the stat.

[Firewind]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

I'm torn between Thaumaturge and Pugilist right now. it's a little bit annoying.

THA is cool but your DPS sucks without Spell Speed gear, plus the game makes kiting very difficult with how quickly mobs stop chasing you and they sometimes run away even while slept.

PGL I'm having fun with but being a super squishy melee class sucks. Even with Alchemy levelled, I'm spending a fortune of healing items.

[Malacite]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

It's "THM", and lolspeed gear. You want to be stacking as much INT as humanly possible, following that Determination.


How are you spending a fortune on healing items? Most mobs are complete utter trash - it sounds like you're just not pacing yourself right. You heal very, very quickly between fights unlike in FFXI.

[Aeni]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

THM is a bit wonky and I haven't yet figured out how to deal with the elemental orbs. That said, use CNJ's active mode (That thing that swaps out some MND for INT) to boost THM's output and it should be plenty enough. If you want to kite mobs, kite them in a circle around their spawn point (but be careful of aggro adds) Use Blizzard only; I think Fire has a lengthier cast time. Pickup Aero from CNJ for DOT. I think that sums it up.

I agree that PGL seems to be a bit of a paper tiger atm. Not sure what changed from 1.0, but it just doesn't feel the same (I also seem to evade, dodge less, but that's no doubt due to PvP balancing)

[Malacite]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Cleric Stance is the ability.

And the way you play THM now is you stack Astral Fire to increase the damage of each successive Fire spell (usually want to open with Blizzard when solo however to inflict heavy) but this also stops MP recovery entirely and increases the cost of fire spells I believe, so you need to use .. ugh, forget the name but it starts with a "T" to switch your stances (Transposition I think? something like that) to swap your Astral Fire for Umbral Ice so you can rapidly recover MP, and then go right back to nuking.

It's a little awkward and increases THM's micromanagement from before, but it does feel a bit more dynamic than before. I still hate Thunder as a DoT spell and would rather it be magic crit for high single-target damage potential;

That's what I liked about THM in 1.23 - Ice was for CC, Fire for AoE and Lightning for burning down NMs.

[Firewind]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Thunder is actually your most damaging spell if you keep up the DoT and don't clip it. Aero hits even harder due to the initial hit being stronger though Thunder can proc Thundercloud so probably does more overall in a sustained fight.

What I was pointing out with THM is that to even have competitive DPS on it you need to do something to bring down your casting times. Physical classes right now are only restricted by the global cooldown. By the time my fire spell has done off, that PGL or LNC will have already gotten off two attacks for roughly the same damage per attack as my one spell.

Cleric Stance also isn't that useful, the 10% damage bonus isn't really worth the hit to INT you take when you put it up. Unless I'm mistaken it converts INT into MND so that Stone and Aero hits harder.

Blizzard and Fire have the exact same casting time. Blizzar does seem to have a slightly faster projectile animation but that doesn't make any difference in how quickly the server registers the hit.

That said after I got Scathe my survivability went up tenfold. Between Scathe, Sleep, Thunder and Aero dying became a lot harder.

At 50 the spell priority looks like it is going to be this for max single target DPS:

1. Thunder (If the DoT fell off)
2. Aero (If the DoT fell off)
3. Fire III (To consume Firestarter Proc)
4. Thunder (During Thundercloud proc, don't worry too much about clipping, you actually gain DPS despite it clipping the DoT)
5. Fire spam until unable to afford Fire
6. Transpose and Blizzard Spam until max MP

Basically it's better to let a DoT drop off for a GCD than to clip it since losing the last tick is always going to be an overall DPS loss.

I'm not 100% sure on the use of Fire III and Blizzard III due to the increased cast time and MP cost. Anyone able to confirm if it is a damage increase over spamming the weaker but much faster Fire and Blizzard?

[Malacite]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Thunder is actually your most damaging spell if you keep up the DoT and don't clip it. Aero hits even harder due to the initial hit being stronger though Thunder can proc Thundercloud so probably does more overall in a sustained fight.

What I was pointing out with THM is that to even have competitive DPS on it you need to do something to bring down your casting times. Physical classes right now are only restricted by the global cooldown. By the time my fire spell has done off, that PGL or LNC will have already gotten off two attacks for roughly the same damage per attack as my one spell.

Stopped reading right there, as I know you're completely full of it.


First of all, there's been extensive testing that shows even at 50 with good speed gear, it barely reduces the time between casts. Secondly, while it's true other DDs will get in auto-attack damage on top of their WS, to say that it vastly outstrips THM's damage output is 100% pure bullshit and shows you clearly haven't been in any prolonged fights in the beta.

I have, and let me tell you, once you run out of TP your damage falls off a cliff, while THM can just toss up Umbral Ice and be back at full MP within seconds. That's why I've ignored all the retards on the beta forums complaining about how the battle system is too simple/easy/mindless - they have no idea how you need to pace yourself against major NMs. This is where I feel DRG & BRD are going to really shine, with Invigorate & (I forgrt the name of the TP song ><) respectively as these will be crucial skills.

It's also what I feel gives PLD the real edge over WAR when it comes to tanking - once you're low on MP, hate's gonna start to fly a bit (though provoke helps tremendously) whereas PLD has a number of really good hate spikes - the major nerfing of Steel Cyclone is espcially limiting I feel (I really hate how WAR has to manage "Wrath" now...)

[Firewind]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

First of all, "Stopped reading right there" posts don't make you look smart. They just make you look like you're going "lalalalalalalalanolisteninglalalalalala" with your hands covering your ears. Come on, I know you're more mature than that.

Second of all selectively reading bits of posts and blowing them out of context. Come on you aren't BBQ, please don't stoop to his level.

Third. You've run out of TP in a fight? Are you just mindlessly spamming abilities? Sorry but it is not a limiting mechanic at all. This and your whining about managing wWath shows you haven't even played an MMO where melee classes have to manage a "consumer" resource alongside an "energy" resource before. It's really not that difficult to juggle. For all your talk about correct pacing you're also contradicting yourself massively by saying that TP is a problem with things like Paeon and Invigorate (pain to get but worth it) around. Try out an Operative or Smuggler on SWTOR, or even a Bounty Hunter or Trooper if you want a lesson in proper resource management.

I've been in plenty of prolonged fights and where the THM/BLM shines is sustained AoE damage. Any adds in a fight go down pretty quickly with one around as long as they don't have to start using Blizzard II. In terms of pure single target damage however if you could be bothered to read my posts without going into "Oooooh I stopped reading there because I don't agree with something!!!oneeleventyone!" as it is that that I have been talking about, I'd argue that the physical classes have a far easier time of pulling it off due to not being limited to things like being forced to remain stationary to do significant damage, ability to be interrupted, being utterly crippled by paralysis more than TP classes (that can still auto attack) and Fire Resistance. Before you start I'm not asking for these things to go, I'm just pointing out that these are the limitations of the class.

Of course if there are some actual live single target parses that show that THM/BLM is on top in terms of pure single target damage I'll be happy to admit I was wrong there. The only thing I've seen on the beta forums so far is theorycrafting. On paper something could be theoretically great but in a raid environment, things may well be completely different.

Also, If you paid attention to my post you will also note that I have been saying that reducing the cast time of THM spells will help them. If anything my post says "Buff Spell/Skill Speed Gear" and in no way says "erhagerdstacksperlspeed" like you are implying.

Plus all your bluster about MP not being a limiting factor does tell me that you haven't partied with a BLM. Freeze and Flare DO put a massive drain on MP, plus Flare consumes all MP in the first place meaning that you do need to be packing ethers just in case for whatever reason you cant just hit Transpose. If you have a Bard in the group, chances are they are going to have Paeon up instead of Ballad and sometimes you need that nuke now or you need to drop some Cures to back up the Healer while in Astral Fire or some Sleeps right now or the group wipes, and you can't just tell everyone "Yeah hold on for my Transpose cooldown guys!" if waiting for that long will just wipe the group.

That said if you are playing ANY class that uses MP as a resource and you aren't carrying even basic Ethers, you are a fucking idiot. Sorry but the basic ones are stupidly cheap and given how low level the basic ones are, you can mass produce them yourself.

And you've clearly not played THM in any capacity other than dealing damage. I've been in a number of groups where I have been asked to main heal (a very real possibility if nobody can find a CNJ/WHM for a Dungeon Run in the Duty Finder or if you have plenty of friends ingame who don't want to wait around to find a healer), which adds a number of layers of complexity given that you need to sustain Umbral Ice but you also only have access to Cure I and you will also likely be asked to do things like Sleep/Nuke adds and blow shit up if heavy healing isn't required for that particular encounter. As noted above, sometimes as a DD, things might go badly and you need to Curebomb while in Astral Fire to help the healer or lose the tank.

[Dux]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

A bunch of people who did science to stats and their effects and some materia melding.

Abaddon.us &bull; Stats: Molly's Guide to a Kick Ass Build
Abaddon.us &bull; Materia Melding Guide
Damage Formula and Mechanics - Tutorials and Guides - Daeva of War - Gaming Community

[Malacite]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Interesting reads, but I dunno about going for DEX after STR. I'd personally lean more towards VIT unless, as I've stated before, the effect of DEX on block & parry rates has been substantially changed as it was extremely marginal in 1.0


EDIT: It might be asking a bit much, but it really would be nice if stat caps were included in the help text for items - if not by default then when you're going to add a materia, you get a window popping up before doing so showing exactly how much of the stat you're trying to add you'll get. A lot of people are gonna rage (and rightly so) when they add tier 4~5 materia to an item and only get like half the benefit.

[Aeni]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Interesting reads, but I dunno about going for DEX after STR. I'd personally lean more towards VIT unless, as I've stated before, the effect of DEX on block & parry rates has been substantially changed as it was extremely marginal in 1.0

Nevermind that, the people compiling this data seems to have forgotten common sense ... you cannot dodge, parry or block magic in this game. Just like in WoW. And unless they have data to prove otherwise, then saying DEX being more important than VIT is saying that take this stat over this because it only works 50% of the time.

VIT is better than DEX, because I rather (as a healer) heal predictable incoming damage than be lulled into occassional large-ass amounts of incoming damage.

For example:

Hit - 20% of health bar
Hit - 20% of health bar
Dodge
Hit - 20% of health bar
Hit - 20% of health bar

versus

Miss
Miss
Hit - 60% health bar
Dodge
Hit - 70% health bar (tank dies)

[Molly_Millions]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Firstly, Thanks for the link Dux.

Interesting reads, but I dunno about going for DEX after STR. I'd personally lean more towards VIT

There's an interesting discussion going on on the beta forums about this right now. Unfortunately I got a 10 day ban last night and can't take part in it. I had written up a great reply about stat priorities. Basically, if you max out your gear on the 4 most important stats, regardless of their priority you end up with pretty much the same thing. So ultimately the only choice left is what to do with the 30 points from stat allocation. I can honestly see going either way, full STR, or full VIT. There is merit in both. You're going to get most of your extra stat points from materia, and the biggest bang for your buck will actually be from DEX because you can put it on all of your tanking gear, whereas STR and VIT are usually already capped.


So, a poster on the beta forums was saying he would use the following prioritization for his stats:

VIT > STR > Parry > ACC > DEX > Crit

I kind of disagree with those priorities, but I think the net result is pretty much the same.

I'm going with STR > DEX > VIT > Parry > Crit Rate > Determination. Check it out, here's my ideal gear set (assuming I have no darklight) and stats I'll end up with. Stats added via materia are in red. Some of these stats might be a point or two off, because I can't see the HQ version on XIVDB. The premise remains the same.

I'm opting for Crit rate over ACC, because I'm not yet convinced that we need to stack any more ACC than what's native on Darksteel gear. I reserve the right to be wrong on that pending further ACC testing. I'm adding Determination for the enmity bonus. At first I was thinking I wanted Rubelite Jewelry, but it has skill speed, so I think Amber is the way to go.

Grade Vs will be nerfed a little bit, so the stats are a bit off, but I think you get the general idea.

Darksteel Armor
STR +30
VIT +30
ACC +37
DEX +30
Parry +24


Darksteel Flanchard
STR +30
VIT +30
ACC +37
DEX +30
Parry +24

Darksteel Gauntlets
STR +12
VIT +12
ACC +15
DEX +10
Parry +12
Crit Rate +12
Determination +15

Amber Rings
VIT +7
Parry +10
DEX +7
STR +7
Crit Rate +6


Amber Choker
VIT +7
Parry +10
DEX +7
STR +7
Crit Rate +6

Amber Bracelets
VIT +7
Parry +10
DEX +7
STR +7
Crit Rate +6


Amber Earrings
VIT +7
Parry +10
DEX +7
STR +7
Crit Rate +6

[Malacite]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Again, not entirely sold on DEX as a stat to boost on anything but ARC but we'll see.


Crit Rate on the other hand, is positively insane. Even just using Straightshot on my MRD at lower levels, the +10% crit chance from it is extremely noticeable. It gets even more ridiculous with the PUG skill (forge the name but it's like +20% crit rate for 20s and stacks with Straight Shot...)

- - - Updated - - -

Again, not entirely sold on DEX as a stat to boost on anything but ARC but we'll see.


Crit Rate on the other hand, is positively insane. Even just using Straightshot on my MRD at lower levels, the +10% crit chance from it is extremely noticeable. It gets even more ridiculous with the PUG skill (forge the name but it's like +20% crit rate for 20s and stacks with Straight Shot...). Stack Maim on top of all that and yeah, I was putting the "dedicated" DDs to shame in most of the dungeons I did. And some shmuck had the nerve to tell me MRD/WAR isn't a DD anymore... (granted, WAR can't use ARC skills which sucks.... I think it can still use PUG tho)

[Aeni]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

(In response to post above Mal, not to Mal)

You're assuming many things in that post. No one actually knows the threshold of stat capping and there can be made exceptions between different classes (for example, an ARCH's DEX cap may be a lot higher than a MRD's) There's some common sense that needs to be put out first:

(1) Past performance is no indication of future results.

If you participated in WoW Beta, then you will understand exactly what I mean. At one point, Spirit as a stat was vital to both HP and MP regen. When Blizzard found that Warriors could just stack Spirit as a stat and healers had nothing to do, they had to re-imagine how it worked and just silently nerfed Spirit immediately after release. The same can happen here for ARR. This includes both materia and gear stats, as SE has told us numerous times during Alpha and Beta that stats on gear is subjected to change (and they promise it will change, although how much we can never be certain)

(2) Each class has certain traits which cannot be shared between them. These traits usually rely on some strange stat configuration. Therefore, if you're worried about stat capping, especially from multiple sources (although IMHO, you shouldn't use Materia to boost core stats, only secondary ones), then you should study your class traits and determine whether or not to invest in those stats that would benefit the traits. However, since we can never be sure if stat capping is an issue within a context (for example, I'm going to say that VIT has a higher threshold for tanks than any classes, and MRD's are tanks, not DPS, according to Dungeon Finder), it'll be best to just wait until we get closer to release and then have this discussion.

(3) There shouldn't be an issue with enmity for tanks. Failing to not have the prerequisite abilties fall to just failures of an individual player of not working on a few other classes to obtain those abilities. Remember FFXI where there were tanks who didn't have a sub-job and insisted on being able (or being allowed) to tank without it?

[Molly_Millions]

Re: XIV combat mechanics and formulas

Again, not entirely sold on DEX as a stat to boost on anything but ARC but we'll see.


Crit Rate on the other hand, is positively insane. Even just using Straightshot on my MRD at lower levels, the +10% crit chance from it is extremely noticeable. It gets even more ridiculous with the PUG skill (forge the name but it's like +20% crit rate for 20s and stacks with Straight Shot...). Stack Maim on top of all that and yeah, I was putting the "dedicated" DDs to shame in most of the dungeons I did. And some shmuck had the nerve to tell me MRD/WAR isn't a DD anymore... (granted, WAR can't use ARC skills which sucks.... I think it can still use PUG tho)

I agree that DEX isn't the most effective stat, but it's close to Parry in raising block percentage, and given that it's a separate stat from parry, that means that it's not already capped on tank gear. The name of the game is damage mitigation as far as what stats we can add to gear for tank, then we add what's best after that. Since I'm not yet convinced that we need more ACC, crit rate is boss. If we had straight HP, I'd opt for that, but we don't, and VIT is capped.

- - - Updated - - -

(In response to post above Mal, not to Mal)

You're assuming many things in that post. No one actually knows the threshold of stat capping and there can be made exceptions between different classes (for example, an ARCH's DEX cap may be a lot higher than a MRD's) There's some common sense that needs to be put out first:

(1) Past performance is no indication of future results.

If you participated in WoW Beta, then you will understand exactly what I mean. At one point, Spirit as a stat was vital to both HP and MP regen. When Blizzard found that Warriors could just stack Spirit as a stat and healers had nothing to do, they had to re-imagine how it worked and just silently nerfed Spirit immediately after release. The same can happen here for ARR. This includes both materia and gear stats, as SE has told us numerous times during Alpha and Beta that stats on gear is subjected to change (and they promise it will change, although how much we can never be certain)

(2) Each class has certain traits which cannot be shared between them. These traits usually rely on some strange stat configuration. Therefore, if you're worried about stat capping, especially from multiple sources (although IMHO, you shouldn't use Materia to boost core stats, only secondary ones), then you should study your class traits and determine whether or not to invest in those stats that would benefit the traits. However, since we can never be sure if stat capping is an issue within a context (for example, I'm going to say that VIT has a higher threshold for tanks than any classes, and MRD's are tanks, not DPS, according to Dungeon Finder), it'll be best to just wait until we get closer to release and then have this discussion.

(3) There shouldn't be an issue with enmity for tanks. Failing to not have the prerequisite abilties fall to just failures of an individual player of not working on a few other classes to obtain those abilities. Remember FFXI where there were tanks who didn't have a sub-job and insisted on being able (or being allowed) to tank without it?

We know that effectively there is no overall cap, only caps on each individual piece of gear, and yes, we know those. We know that the caps are determined by the amount of each type of stat on the HQ version of the gear. Primary stats are capped at one number, and secondary at another. Completely useless stats (lets say INT for PLD) are possibly capped much lower. Those caps are how I determined my numbers. I'm actually not assuming anything, everything I posted is based on testing and has been confirmed by multiple sources.