FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

[Karinya]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

People who play because they enjoy helping other people learn from that mistake eventually. I sure as hell did learn it with Bard.

What mistake? Thinking that assholes don't exist, or not knowing how to avoid wasting time on them?

But I'm not convinced SE will repeat that design with FFXIV.

I'm not sure exactly what design you're talking about here, but if you mean the way you're not locked in to previous choices, I really really hope you're wrong. The ability to explore different ways of playing WITHOUT rerolling a zillion alts and running them all through newbie quests is THE biggest strength of FFXI, IMO, and they would be fools not to repeat it. (What they shouldn't repeat is how they undermined their own game design with the merit system. Enmity merits are the most conspicuous offender, actually shooting you in the foot as soon as you change jobs.)

They made Bard so good people never enjoyed being the Bard at high level (the gimmick runs out fast), they just enjoyed having one (which gets old even more quickly).

Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean nobody enjoys it.

I'd like to see more variety for BRD, which I think could be helped by strengthening some of the situational songs like carols and status-resist songs and/or giving them separate slot(s) that don't conflict with the raw stats songs.

IMO the biggest design flaw in BRD is that the bland all-purpose songs (especially acc, haste, refresh) are too good, so there's rarely any point in being more dynamic or tactical in your song choices. Brute force is just better. But since those songs are so good, anything that was even *better* would be not merely overpowered (which BRD already is; it's just less of an overall balance problem than BLM or SAM because there are extremely diminishing returns to massing BRDs), but hideously overpowered. SE's nerfophobia stands in the way of making BRD a more interesting job, because in order to become more interesting, it needs to be nerfed in some aspects so that it can be buffed in others, so that ultimately you wouldn't sing the same songs all the time.

But there definitely are people who play BRD in endgame events and some of them apparently don't hate it like you do. So maybe my opinions on it don't matter -- the game can get along fine without me playing BRD.

You could make the same helpfulness/exploitation point about WHM, and healers generally (and there have been a lot of games that combined the healer and buffer roles, including FFXI to some extent). Should those roles be abolished too? Do you want a game where everyone is forced to be a hybrid of every role? I don't. Specialization is good for MMOs, and if you don't like being a pure buff class, then don't.

I think its better to give each job some unique support element rather than have a class specifically for it. COR and DNC were still support classes, but minus the downsides like BRD being pretty much helpless in party combat and being a one-note endgame job (ballad, ballad and more ballad).

First of all, COR and DNC *are* support classes, not were support classes.

Second, DNC is unfortunately minus a lot of the upsides too; they can't support mages worth crap (even compared to BRD!), their haste is gimpy (although the def/eva reductions actually pay off pretty big, but people don't appreciate them because they're invisible stats on a mob; it's an even worse version of the normal underappreciation of support classes), and they have that whole "start from 0 TP 0 FM" problem (although it can be fixed somewhat with /SAM or merits). On top of that, daggers suck. It's a cool idea for a job, but I'm not sure the actual job lives up to that potential (which may be why it's one of the rarest jobs in the game, even compared to BRD and COR).

COR is awesome -- some of the time. But they don't get Pianissimo or anything remotely like it, their buffs have a hellaciously long *shared* recast, they need a rare/ex item to get decent AoE, and oh yeah, there's also that whole randomness thing. And their direct DD is actually pretty mediocre (B skill and no real DD-supporting JAs or traits aside from SJ and whatever DD buffs they might happen to have on at a particular moment), it's just that because of the long recasts on PR and QD, they don't have much else to do most of the time so they might as well. (Of course, they contribute substantially more damage to a party if you count increases in damage that appears to be dealt by another player, but that's true of other support jobs too.)

Third, I think your LSs are full of idiots, which may be some of your problem. There are enough ways to recover MP now that ballad is pretty minor compared to the buffs bards can provide to DDs, but in addition to that there's Pianissimo Minne/Mambo for tanks (how many BRDs even bother to do that, even though Pianissimo has a recast of like 30 seconds?), and oh yeah, some of the best crowd control in the game, especially in Einherjar which has a ton of dark resistant mobs. Ballad ballad ballad is either a crappy BRD, or a crappy way of using the BRD.

BRD mage support is clearly inferior to COR and perhaps no better than SMN now, so anyone who's still putting them in mage-heavy parties has mental problems.

SCH, BLU and PUP also had support elements, but could also go on the offensive in their own ways.

Again with the past tense. I promise you, the servers are still running and people are still playing on them, and this will remain true for *at least* the first several years of FFXIV's operation, possibly longer.

If everyone wants to hurt things, I think everyone can pitch in on support in some way, rather than bank on a few jobs to do it exclusively. It would add some more teamplay to the mix, anyway.

At the cost of turning everyone into a hybrid whether they want to be or not. And as others have hinted at, people who want to hurt things might not take time, let alone other resources like MP or TP, to pitch in on support, even if their class is capable of it. WoW already has similar problems with DPS classes -- and sometimes even classes that were never intended to be primarily DPS -- ignoring the support functions their classes are capable of in order to pump out more damage. Hell, just look at some BLUs and you'll see the problems inherent in farming out some support functionality to a primarily DD class.

But why stop at buffs? Healers and tanks have the same kinds of issues, as I mentioned above. Few games have a job that is *as* focused on support roles as FFXI BRD (even EQ BRD wasn't, IIRC). But I think the separation of jobs, combined with the ability to change between them, is one of the strengths of FFXI, and something that I hope they keep and build on for FFXIV. Mixing everyone together into a bland mush would not be an improvement in my book.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

No, you became bitter and angry. I know I did, in other things, but considering I was 12 at the time, I wouldn't consider the "fuck them all, only worry about yourself" mentality to be as cool and mature as it sounds.

When you invest your time in people that prove not to be worth it, you're in the right to be bitter about it. I don't think you know my situation, Feba, and its long since over. I was simply saying that playing jobs for other people is a mistake. You play jobs only because you enjoy them, otherwise you're asking for a world of disappointment. If you play BRD because you like helping others, you're just asking to be used, its better you play something you truly like.

For me, COR was that nice, happy medium of personal gratification and support. So was SCH. RNG was my raw ego job.

If you can't be of help in your job, oh well. No sweat off my back, really.

[Feba]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

People who play because they enjoy helping other people learn from that mistake eventually. I sure as hell did

No, you became bitter and angry. I know I did, in other things, but considering I was 12 at the time, I wouldn't consider the "fuck them all, only worry about yourself" mentality to be as cool and mature as it sounds. "People who are pushovers and do whatever someone asks" have something to learn. "People who think helping people will always pay off for them" have something to learn. "People that enjoy being able to help someone else" are fortunate.

And I'd agree on having more of a focus on everyone contributing more than attack-- especially because otherwise you risk having "sit there, press skill button as much as possible, eat sandwich" jobs. But either way, SE has to be careful to make support abilities worth the time. If they're perceived as a waste of a melee (for example, take the various Circle spells, which are pointless in most cases), the player will keep attacking without using it; if they can provide something more substantial (Warcry) they'll be used.

Even in FFXI, SE could do a lot in the way of giving melee some crowd control.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Either A, you decide not to be a Bard; FOREVER. If you're ever in a position where you WANT to be BRD, for example to help a friend (because some of us actually enjoy helping people to the point where we don't care what role we're playing), you can't. Your friend has to find another BRD. Or B, you decide to be a Bard; FOREVER. If that shell disbands the next week, you've just screwed yourself over with 'consequences' of trying to make yourself useful to the group as a whole.

People who play because they enjoy helping other people learn from that mistake eventually. I sure as hell did learn it with Bard.

But I'm not convinced SE will repeat that design with FFXIV. They made Bard so good people never enjoyed being the Bard at high level (the gimmick runs out fast), they just enjoyed having one (which gets old even more quickly). I think its better to give each job some unique support element rather than have a class specifically for it. COR and DNC were still support classes, but minus the downsides like BRD being pretty much helpless in party combat and being a one-note endgame job (ballad, ballad and more ballad). SCH, BLU and PUP also had support elements, but could also go on the offensive in their own ways.

If everyone wants to hurt things, I think everyone can pitch in on support in some way, rather than bank on a few jobs to do it exclusively. It would add some more teamplay to the mix, anyway.

[Stormwalker]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

The problem with giving meaningful statistical difference to races is that you have to make the decision of your character's race before you have spent one moment playing the game. You have no idea how relevant or not relevant the statistical differences between races are going to be, even if you know what they are. The weight of various statistics on gameplay in MMO's is a complex thing; stats that seem powerful early on prove weak later. You have no idea at that point if the races are even properly balanced. As a result, you run the risk of crippling your character--of ensuring you will *never* be able to perform at the highest levels--before you've had any time to understand the game at all. And if you then play 40 hours before you reach the point in the game where those differences become important, and you have to start over, that's 40 hours you've wasted.

I'm all in favor of giving players ways to differentiate themselves. That's a good thing. But it should be based on decisions you make AFTER you've gained enough experience with the game system to understand the consequences of the decision you are making... not at the character select screen.

Just my thoughts.

[Feba]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

1: Am I the only one who can see Jei's posts? Jei! You're posting again! I seem to be the only one who's noticed! Did you maybe die and become an internet ghost? Also, hi! Welcome back!

2: BBQ, that has nothing to do with "consequences", it's just a matter of FFXI being time consuming and promoting greed. FFXI uses a system of random chance to distribute almost all of the rewards worth having. And many of these random chances are time limited-- NMs that take time farming items to pop, NMs that spawn only every so often in real-time, systems you can only attempt every so often, etc. People try to bring order chaos with points systems, but like anything else placed in the hands of people who also have something to gain from it, they are corruptable. Either someone circumvents the system (lotting/QM when they shouldn't), someone changes the system to benefit themselves (Shells and sacks giving each other points or lotting rights. Even in need-before-greed shells, it's easy for someone in power to claim 'need' for something they want).

Limiting what jobs people can perform would only limit the number of people competing for an item, it wouldn't really help the competition in any other way though. And by limiting gear drops by job class; and forcing people to decide on some role as you imply, you'd only lead to people with unfavored job classes being able to exploit their comrades in other ways. Imagine your "you're forced to be Bard" scenario in a world 'with consequences'.

Either A, you decide not to be a Bard; FOREVER. If you're ever in a position where you WANT to be BRD, for example to help a friend (because some of us actually enjoy helping people to the point where we don't care what role we're playing), you can't. Your friend has to find another BRD. Or B, you decide to be a Bard; FOREVER. If that shell disbands the next week, you've just screwed yourself over with 'consequences' of trying to make yourself useful to the group as a whole.

I fully support the sort of limitation you describe-- consequences through an abundance of choice. Give people so many paths to follow that they can't possibly go down them all. But when you start to block off other paths because someone decided to walk down one, you're restricting your players, not allowing them to be what they want.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Great gear dropping to douche players who quit soon after is a problem regardless if you can be one class or many classes. That's a player made issue more then a gameplay issue and has little to nothing to do with Race selection. As is the other problem of always having to use one of X amount of jobs a player chose to level. I mean, if I played WoW I could easily level up two different characters with two different classes and run into the same problem of people wanting me to use one character over the other since one class is more useful.

As for merit situations, it is a trade-off. You could either level multiple jobs and be good at all of them, or you could focus solely on one or two jobs and excel with them. Merits are supposed to help differentiate people at endgame, so two people who both play War can have some differences assuming one is merited and the other isn't.

Who I create does have consequences, but if I change my mind mid-way through leveling a job, I don't want to go and have to delete that character and all the progress they've made throughout the game just to restart as a new class. Especially if it's a character I've grown attached to. I should be able to start a new class from scratch with a character who retains the experiences of someone who's already made accomplishments. In a way, it's a way to make your character stand out as more then just being defined by a single class, but by all of it's gained and learned abilities and experiences it's had while playing.

All of this has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of limiting race selection mind you. Both systems (single class throughout game/changing classes during play) can work equally well whether you have 2 races or 20 races. Though one version does lend it's self better to constantly restarting, but at the same time it promotes less of a connection to an in-game avatar.

To me, races, and preferably visible clothing/gear, should be nothing more but aesthetic choices in a game. Especially an MMO. One of the reasons why I liked PSU so much was because all of it's visual aspects were for solely aesthetic reasons while gameplay stats and such were handled by nearly invisible items and gear. A system like that, where race and looks meant little in actual gameplay, helps to promote a much stronger bond between a player and their avatar then having massive stat and skill differences inherit in racial selections. With FFXIV, SE has a whole new world to work with, and in that new world they could add as many unique looking races as they please. And it will be a crying shame if they end up just rehashing the same five races we've grown so familiar with over the past 8 years now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Besides looks and story, what more differences do you need? Stats and skills? Those are actually terrible things to use to differentiate races imo. When I'm making an avatar for an online game I want it's looks to reflect what I prefer, but if I have to choose between looking a certain way or getting the best abilities/stats it takes away some of the fun. Races should be nothing more then cosmetic changes and let classes/gear/in-game playstyles determine a character's skills, stats and abilities.

You asked what more could I want?

More consequences and fewer catch-all solutions.

Who you create should be an important choice that at least partially defines your experience.

In FFXI, you can "be anything," but once you get to endgame, you realize that's less and less true the more jobs you level up. Eventually something is going to fall the wayside, something is going to be unpractical to merit or some piece of gear wasted on a job you don't play so much that someone else plays more than you do.

How many times have we seen a relic Chapeau fall to some prick that was quitting anyway? Why does "need before greed" not work in FFXI? Why should you have to come Bard all the time when the leader always gets to be your favorite job?

Because you can "be anything."

The positive is the same as the negative. That's not a trade-off, just a double-edged sword.

What I hope to see this time is some degree of leveraging, consequences and trade-offs.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

The problem with race so far is that its all mild flavoring and no substance outside of story

Besides looks and story, what more differences do you need? Stats and skills? Those are actually terrible things to use to differentiate races imo. When I'm making an avatar for an online game I want it's looks to reflect what I prefer, but if I have to choose between looking a certain way or getting the best abilities/stats it takes away some of the fun. Races should be nothing more then cosmetic changes and let classes/gear/in-game playstyles determine a character's skills, stats and abilities.

I hate to say this, but SE seems to fear the idea of adding consequences to choices made outside of the Merit System in FFXI

I don't think they "fear" it so much as they dislike the idea of locking a player into a single role for the entirety of the game. With FFXI being able to do literally everything on one character was an advantage. It was a unique, positive aspect that made FFXI stand out just that little bit more compared to other MMOs. Players are a fickle lot, so allowing them to try out and change their character's class, crafts, skills and so forth and switch between whatever through out the entire game was an excellent decision by SE and something they seem to be maintaining for FFXIV. If the only thing we can't change in FFXIV is our race and names then it will be a very good thing.

It would just be another avatar with a slightly different stat spread that means nothing.

Well what more do you want?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Cause the people want NEW races? What do you not see in that? I don't know one person who hasen't hoped for new races. Why? Cause we're bored with seeing the same ole shit.

Even so, what is the difference if there's no substance to the addition? It would just be another avatar with a slightly different stat spread that means nothing.

You'd seriously just be happy with something that just looked different? That's how low you set the bar?

There wasn't a simple "no" but a "We can not discuss that at this time."

That's sometimes the long version of "no."

"Will there be new races" was Question #2 to "Will I be able to transfer my character?"

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

I would like to see more playable races as well. But... From what they have said though... They most likely will not be using any more since they have said that they want to use the races that look like FFXI's races so that FFXI players can "easily" transit between FFXIV and FFXI. So... With that in mind, I highly doubt they wil addl any more races

But if they DON'T want to be like their FFXI characters, they also have that choice not to. Now does that go further than more customizable character? Or is the more customizable characters compensation for no new races? Questions questions questions..

The game would really stand out with a larger selection of races to choose from. I'm sure it's more than difficult to not only come up with how they look, but their back story as well, but SE has always had a lot to draw on from past games. I'm doubtful that we'll see anything more than varied cultures within the same few races.

Supposedly they have been talking/working on this project since early 2005.. I hope to God a company as original as SE could come up with a few new races with back stories. And I honestly believe that there is going to be new races. I think no more than 3 new races will be added.

The problem with race so far is that its all mild flavoring and no substance outside of story, especially in FFXI. If there's no substance to it, I see absolutely no point whatsoever in adding yet another race to the mix because its just going to be another avatar with a marginal stat difference. Whats the point of that's all its going to be?

Cause the people want NEW races? What do you not see in that? I don't know one person who hasen't hoped for new races. Why? Cause we're bored with seeing the same ole shit.

If they add a new race, though, I only see it happening in expansions. There's nothing that even suggests other playable races at this point and its probably silly to hope for a new one by launch.

How about the devs not fully answering the question about new races? There wasn't a simple "no" but a "We can not discuss that at this time."



Whether there is new races or not, I will still be playing this game and it's not going to change my look on the game, but I totally agree that it would stand out with a variety of races.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

The problem with race so far is that its all mild flavoring and no substance outside of story, especially in FFXI. If there's no substance to it, I see absolutely no point whatsoever in adding yet another race to the mix because its just going to be another avatar with a marginal stat difference. Whats the point of that's all its going to be?

However, if these factions they seem to be incorporating actually mean something more than minor stat differences and palate swaps, that could more than make up for the lack of new races. And if they do add races, that means more factions to add as well, which keeps things interesting. Or they could just expand factions even further.

If they add a new race, though, I only see it happening in expansions. There's nothing that even suggests other playable races at this point and its probably silly to hope for a new one by launch.

I hate to say this, but SE seems to fear the idea of adding consequences to choices made outside of the Merit System in FFXI. In Everquest, you seriously had to contemplay the path you took your jobs down and you couldn't just change that choice ten levels down the road. While I appreciate SE's desire for a robust system, the excess freedom they give players forces the differences between race to amount to nothing except in the most extreme scenarios.

Even if it was something like Roegadyn being superior blacksmiths or fishermen, that would at least be something to distinguish them. Lalafell are said to be adept at harvesting crops. I think this would be a passable way to make the differences between races at least noteworthy.

[DakAttack]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

The game would really stand out with a larger selection of races to choose from. I'm sure it's more than difficult to not only come up with how they look, but their back story as well, but SE has always had a lot to draw on from past games. I'm doubtful that we'll see anything more than varied cultures within the same few races.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

I'm honestly hoping they do add at least one new race, because really, there's no reason not to. In FFXI the races were all directly linked to the origins of the world itself, in FFXIV the races don't seem to have that connection. They should also add male mithra if for no other reason then to just stop the whining about there being no male mithras.

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

more races? that would be interesting! especially considering stats wise they said the races are not so different that will force them to only be optimal at certain classes.

I would like to see more playable races as well. But... From what they have said though... They most likely will not be using any more since they have said that they want to use the races that look like FFXI's races so that FFXI players can "easily" transit between FFXIV and FFXI. So... With that in mind, I highly doubt they wil addl any more races.