Paladin as subjob for WHM

[Ellison]

I haven't played FFXI but am looking forward to it. I'm planning on playing as a White Mage when the game goes live. After reading a lot of posts here and various guides it looks like having a Summoner subjob is good for the MP and MND bonuses as well as the Auto Refresh quality.

I've also been looking at Paladin as a possible subjob for my White Mage. I haven't seen much discussion about that combo. Although I have no real experience in the game, it seems to have some good points like higher HP and VIT and boosts to physical defense. When in a party, is physical defense that important for a White Mage or would I always be camped at the back and never get attacked. Also, being able to switch to a decent level Paladin as a main job when bored with being a White Mage all the time seems lilke a nice change of pace. So is this a good idea or am I hopelessly misguided?

[Tuno]

I don't agree with what you said about the only sub for Paladin being Warrior. That just isn't true. While there may certainly be a lot of bonuses for choosing it as a sub there is no reason the Paladin cannot choose Black Mage or Dark Knight or anything else to augment his capabilities. I agree with you that some combos just don't work but no class is restricted to one sub.

[Jei]

PLD's task in a group is to keep target on them. Everyone invites PLD to be the main shield of the group. Not having warrior as support job means no provocation. which destroy PLD's main task totally.

It's not the case if you're out solo. But in a party, all PLD must use /war.

[Maxim]

The extra HP and defense from subbing PLD isn't going to be a significant difference. You would be much more useful with the extra MP you get from subbing BLM or SMN. In life or death situations during level up parties, it is normally the amount of MP you have available that will contribute the most to your party, not your defense.

I've only seen a WHM/PLD combination once so far, and the person's excuse was that he only had PLD leveled and his BLM was still level 1.

And, yeah, the only support job for PLD is WAR no matter what in level up parties. While I was looking for a party I once saw a PLD/BLM around my level who was also looking for a party in Jeuno (I'm guessing she used BLM to Dezone to Jeuno from another town and simply forgot to change subs.) When I finally got invited to a party, the leader chose a SAM/WAR to tank, and didn't even go near the PLD.

[Lyonesse]

WHM/PLD is an excellent combo. Unlike most of the orthodox WHMs out there, it's my main combo now that I have PLD (Previous being WHM/WAR).

While WHM defense isn't hot by itself, the bonuses given by PLD and WAR boost a WHM's defense quite a bit. I have 152 defense at level 30 (that's not including having all the best defensive gear at my level, the Mercenary Captain's set) with protect II. That's about 10-25 points difference with a WAR at my level I think.

It doesn't have the pure MP boosting or the spells that a BLM sub will give you but it'll augment WHM 's strength and weaknesses at the same time.

I'll perhaps create a guide to WHM in the near future for people willing to take the class as far as possible with new combinations that are unorthodox to people.

[Lyonesse]

Indeed it does pay to enhance strengths but at the same point, you're only making your weaknesses more apparent. For WHM, I personally don't think that the amount of MP is important but the usage of the MP you do have. Rather than wasting MP healing myself, I choose to use this sub to take hits better and as such, no need to heal myself automatically. So while MP I get off a BLM sub might toss 2 or 3 extra Cure IIs at my level, I can almost guarantee that one or two of those will be spent healing the extra damage I take in combat. Also, a meleeing WHM can make up for less Cures by helping to defeat an enemy faster.

At any rate, at the end of the day it's whether or not the job gets done and that's what counts most. Whether or not you're doing pure healing or mixing melee and healing as a WHM doesn't matter. Of course, I'd say that you should go with the PLD sub personally

Btw, I went 20-30 in a matter of 2 or 3 days with WAR as my sub. It's sort of funny when you have everyone cheering for you in Qufim for soloing a tough Land worm for 120 XP =P.

We also need to get Starving to use the English connotations for the difficulty levels of monsters unless he's being sarcastic. :p

[Mithrael]

Well, being level 30, I don't think you totally understand yet what he means. (I know that probably sounds condescneding, but i don't mean it to) If you're getting hit by a very tough or incredibly tough mob at lv.45 that piddley defense boost isn't going to help you. We're talking about mobs that hit for crits for 150- or so regardless of your defense. Your MP really matters more then. you could put that extra 45mp into blink or stoneskin and make much more of a difference than subbing /pld. Blink and Stoneskin absorb the damage, not just reduce it - it's worth a lot more to you and the party as you won't have to heal yourself and it reduces the chance of cast interruption.

SA always gives good advice

[Lyonesse]

Well, being level 30, I don't think you totally understand yet what he means. (I know that probably sounds condescneding, but i don't mean it to)

Oh, I know what he means. Just because I'm level 30 doesn't mean I don't have experience. So don't worry about sounding condescending.

If you're getting hit by a very tough or incredibly tough mob at lv.45 that piddley defense boost isn't going to help you.

I'll have to take a rain check on that until I get to level 45 to be sure. However, it's pretty apparent that most White mages will go with the standard mage sub (BLM or SMN) and most haven't tried playing differently at that level. I can certainly understand not wanting to risk it but unless it's been tried, you never know.

Oh btw, I've noticed I block and parry more with my PLD/WAR subs which is a nice little benefit.

We're talking about mobs that hit for crits for 150- or so regardless of your defense. Your MP really matters more then. you could put that extra 45mp into blink or stoneskin and make much more of a difference than subbing /pld.

Why would a White mage cast blink or stoneskin in the middle of a battle though? It takes too long to cast in the middle of a fight, that time can be used to heal people. Besides most WHMs would cast it before battle and that assumes you'll have some time to heal your MP as well.

I feel sorry for DRKs during those battles btw =P.

Blink and Stoneskin absorb the damage, not just reduce it - it's worth a lot more to you and the party as you won't have to heal yourself and it reduces the chance of cast interruption.

Blink lasts for 2 hits maybe 3 and Stoneskin will absorb damage to an extent. It's still not a terribly viable alternative in the heat of battle IMO. Costs mp and takes time to cast.

No sarcasm intended~ In the Jp version they are called tote and totetote, I still don't know the English version terms so they are kinda mixing up in my head.

Silly Square Enix developers @_@. Had to go with Totemo^2 instead of something like Chou Muzakashi or something =P.

Btw, have you heard the English terms? If not, we can always tag it for you.

In any case, as long as you get the job done that's the important part. It depends who you are PTing with, what you're fighting and how strong it is.

My sentiments exactly.

/Blm isn't just for MP but it's other abilities, there were plenty of times when using the Sign of Spirit + Silence stopped a mons from casting an Ancient Magic or group spell. After 58, having Escape also was a PT saver on numerous times. Even some of my Magic Bursts can do good damage if I have the MP to spare.

I've also had times were my provoke or shield bash counted as the crucial point in a battle. It just really depends. I remember having a Goblin Smithy getting ready to bomb toss us just a few days ago. I was out of MP, it had jumped me, My Benediction was still 30 minutes and my other party members were in the red. I managed to Shield Bash and stun the Goblin before he tossed it and that was long enough for my team to finish it off. It's a close call but the idea remains the same. I used my abilities to the fullest extent. Besides, I want sentinel eventually =D.

On occasion, I do get into melee with the rest of the PT if the mons doesn't have area attacks. Although, I end up being hardly able to hit it, even with using Dex and accuracy equipment making my Dex higher than my own Mnd.

I haven't had that problem personally. Then again I get a whopping +11 to Dex anyway with my battle gear.

I'm not knocking Whm/Pld, depends on how you use it really and what the rest of your PT can do. There will be times when every last bit of MP helps, especially when you don't have a Bard or Red Mage. Also, when you see something hitting your Paladin for over 100-200, a Whm can only take so much in comparison.

Of course, I keep a spare set of MP boosting gear for healing purposes on me at all times. It sure isn't a BLM sub but I still get some more MP out of it. You're right, there are times when every little bit of MP counts but there's also times when every little point of defense can count too.

You're right too. If the Paladin is getting hit for 100-200 damage, I'd steer clear of melee. I'm a crazy one but I'm not stupid

That's when the mages cast Blink and Stoneskin to buy some time. All in all, it's circumstantial and different setups all have their pros and cons.

You'll be surprised at my next crazy idea. WHM/NIN =P. Anyway, again I agree. It's all circumstantial and what it boils down to is if the job gets done or not. If someone doesn't want me because my Sub isn't then standard BLM then that's their loss.

[Jei]

hmm after starving's posts i still can't believe you still insists to go WHM/PLD that much.

- Blink Stoneskin, to make it more clear, avoiding 3 hits can mean the life of your party. Imagine you got ganged up by 5 monsters and you need to cast teleport to get out of crawler's nest. What can a PLD give you? You might live longer for a single hit but you will be forced to stop casting your spell, which means your entire party are going to die for sure. Whicl Blink and Stoneskin will help you cast your spell successfully

- Whitemage preferring a better defense rather than better MP boost is just so selfish to me. What's the point of playing whitemage then? To keep yourself alive?
WHM's task is to keep friend's alive and if you are afraid of yourself getting killed that much I recommend you go for THF. One of the safest jobs to play if you play it right.

- Later on you can't cast escape. Same as teleport it's a life saviour for the group.
- Your party pulled multiples enemies got link you can't cast sleep to sleep some links becuase it's blm's magic.
- Your tanks running out of HP and you'll have no extra MP to cure them.
- Most enemies we use for levelling at high levels, all have strong group attacks. If you want to use shield bash you can only run into trouple being close to them. You'll die so fast because you don't care to protect yourself with stoneskin and blink

ouch what kind of whitemage is that, so useless and makes so much trouble.

[Mithrael]

Why would a White mage cast blink or stoneskin in the middle of a battle though? It takes too long to cast in the middle of a fight, that time can be used to heal people. Besides most WHMs would cast it before battle and that assumes you'll have some time to heal your MP as well.

Subbing /RDM (which is s somewhat unorthodox sub) gives you fast cast which reduces the amount of time to cast these. The best WHM I know casts stoneskin and blink in battle as needed, once he has regen2 on the right people and everyone's in a safe HP region. It's all about your ability to not be interrupted in a cast. Stoneskin with an appropiately high enhancement is worth 2-5 hits, and blink is worth 2 hits. Those spells come into effect after the equasions for evade, shield, and parry. This particular WHM can usually take aggro for about 6-7 hits before he takes any damage.

Of course, a WHM isn't supposed to take aggro. However, there have been times where it has been necessary to do a drastic healing maneuver (Cure IV). When that happens, it takes time for the PAL or WAR to pull the mob back off. Without Blink/Stoneskin, you'll probably be dead. If you link and this happens twice in battle, you'll be in trouble if you don't recast.

I feel sorry for DRKs during those battles btw =P.

Why? If you're in a functional party and the DRK is intelligent, he shouldn't be getting hit.

Besides, I want sentinel eventually =D.

Sentinel raises hate (:x) That's the last thing you want to do.

I haven't had that problem personally. Then again I get a whopping +11 to Dex anyway with my battle gear.

In about 10 levels, that just won't matter, unfortunately. Without an A weapon, you won't really hit the mob, even if you boost DEX and Accuracy. If you do get a chance to hit it, you'll do laughable damage. To hit the mob, you need to be right next to it, exposing yourself to increased chance of AOE damage. What's worse is, if you are boosting DEX and Acc, you aren't boosting MND, INT, and MP. Until Lv.50, that's no big deal, but if you're wearing a Ranger's Ring instead of a Medicine Ring at 50 (Cure spells +10%), you're not really living up to your potential.

Later on you can't cast escape. Same as teleport it's a life saviour for the group.

Not only is it a life saver, it's a time saver. As much as i love the aforementioned WHM/RDM, it takes a long time to walk back to the battlegroung after being teleported to a crag/telepoint. Escape saves 10-15 minutes depending on where you are fighting. If you are in Fei Yin trying to do something, the closest crag is Holla! That's like an hour of travel almost to get back to your task.

Teleport and Escape take a LONG time to cast. They also seem to gain hate. It's really hard to keep Crawlers/Beetles/Various Arcane enemies off of the WHM for the whole duration of the cast. Blink+Stoneskin great increase your chances of success.

As far as shield bash/weapon bash/shoulder tackle/smash axe/flat blade/etc. leave that to your melees. Surround yourself with quality players and you'll never need to shield bash again. I don't recall a point since lv.20 that a WHM or BLM had to melee. It's a novelty when you're fighting easier stuff (only tough, even, decent, etc.) so they can use their weapon skills, but 0-5DMG isn't really helping your party accomplish anything.

[Lyonesse]

Good call with the Shield Bash. Just keep in mind they way PTs fight at lvl30 is quite different than lvl50, 60, and so on. A Clipper in Qufim at lv20ish isn't the same as a Robber Crab in Boyada/Kuftal in the 50s. Some monsters are just insanely hard to hit, I can barely hit totetote spiders and crawlers in Boyada/DragonAery even with 63 Dex and +12 accuracy (and I'm a Mithra).

Of course that fighting at level 30 and at 60 isn't going to be the same but the principles behind it will be. If I'm not doing damage to enemies, I go and heal in the back while twiddling my thumbs.

Mages cast Blink/Stoneskin in the middle of battle sometimes in anticipation of getting hit, especially when linked.

Wouldn't it still be better to cast it before the battle begins though?

As long as a person understands the capabilities and limitations of their job/support job, and knows their main role. I would imagine you aren't fooling yourself into thinking that you can be a frontline attacker or defender.

Of course, that's how it is in real life. As long as you know your capabilities and limitations, you can do anything.

I'm only an attacker and defender if the situation calls for it. Enemies that I'm doing moderate to high damage (for me) on is a time I'll attack alongside the melee class (in that case, we're probably fighting enemies that aren't quite as strong). If need be, I'll be the last line of defense. Like I said, I'm radical/crazy but I'm not stupid.

If you are still doing your job as the main healer and support in attacking without slowing down the pace of the PT, it's all good. Sometimes, there's room to jump in and wail on a mons with everyone (plus its hard enough for us to skill up weapons). There are and will be times, when it's best to just sit back and cast.

Exactly.

On a side note, I've never had a problem keeping my weapon leveled. Always been able to take even match or maybe toughs at my level to raise skill. I was running around protecting the level 20s from Wights in Qufim last night doing solo. Quite fun being an Undead Killing machine.

Blink Stoneskin, to make it more clear, avoiding 3 hits can mean the life of your party. Imagine you got ganged up by 5 monsters and you need to cast teleport to get out of crawler's nest. What can a PLD give you? You might live longer for a single hit but you will be forced to stop casting your spell, which means your entire party are going to die for sure. Whicl Blink and Stoneskin will help you cast your spell successfully

I do have those spells you know =P.

Whitemage preferring a better defense rather than better MP boost is just so selfish to me. What's the point of playing whitemage then? To keep yourself alive?
WHM's task is to keep friend's alive and if you are afraid of yourself getting killed that much I recommend you go for THF. One of the safest jobs to play if you play it right.

I know the role of a White Mage. No need to lecture me on the role of a healer, I've been doing it in every MMORPG since Ultima Online. It's always been my choice. I love being able to support and heal my team. Yet, at the same time I also love testing the limits of what most people relegate to a single role. Most people consider healing based classes to be useful for only that, healing. I HATE HATE HATE HATE narrow-minded thinking like that and I set out to prove people wrong.

Secondly, like I said, a defense boost can mean the difference between life and death. What's the usage of MP when you're dead? Even parties can't save you all the time. It sounds selfish on paper but in practice it's proven to me that it works.

Also, if you think I'm scared of dying you're wrong. I'm the last line of defense on my team no matter what. I can't count how many times I've taken a death to save my team from total defeat. White mages are the arteries of a party but arteries are nothing without a body. I'd rather die if need be to save my team because sacrificing them for my own well being is selfish.

- Your party pulled multiples enemies got link you can't cast sleep to sleep some links becuase it's blm's magic.

Why don't the BLMs or even RDMs do that and save the White mage MP for healing hmm?

Your tanks running out of HP and you'll have no extra MP to cure them.

If I was running out of MP in battle, I'd be meditating.

Most enemies we use for levelling at high levels, all have strong group attacks. If you want to use shield bash you can only run into trouple being close to them. You'll die so fast because you don't care to protect yourself with stoneskin and blink

Did you even bother reading what I said? I DON'T CAST IN THE MIDDLE OF BATTLE. I CAST THOSE BEFORE IT BEGINS

ouch what kind of whitemage is that, so useless and makes so much trouble.

Subbing /RDM (which is s somewhat unorthodox sub) gives you fast cast which reduces the amount of time to cast these. The best WHM I know casts stoneskin and blink in battle as needed, once he has regen2 on the right people and everyone's in a safe HP region. It's all about your ability to not be interrupted in a cast.

I've been considering the possibility of RDM as a major battle sub (with PLD and NIN as my usual leveling subs).

At any rate, that's the best WHM you know, not me. I try to avoid casting long spells in battle unless it's something like Curaga. I do all buffs before battle so I can focus on healing during it. That's just my style.

Stoneskin with an appropiately high enhancement is worth 2-5 hits, and blink is worth 2 hits. Those spells come into effect after the equasions for evade, shield, and parry. This particular WHM can usually take aggro for about 6-7 hits before he takes any damage.

I do know how those spells work =P.

[quote]Why? If you're in a functional party and the DRK is intelligent, he shouldn't be getting hit.[quote]

It's because, like I said above, a party can't save you all the time. I feel sorry for the DRK that goes Last Resort during one of those enemies because they're gonna get smacked for huge damage if they draw attention with how much damage they deal. That happened to a friend of mine that was a level 55 DRK. Last resort, criticaled the enemy for like 200 damage and then got criticaled back for 250. @_@.

Sentinel raises hate (:x) That's the last thing you want to do.

Hey, if they hate me they hate me. Better that I have defense . Besides, I'd probably use it before battle and probably after a Curaga or Benediction where I gotta bust out like a chicken running. :D

In about 10 levels, that just won't matter, unfortunately. Without an A weapon, you won't really hit the mob, even if you boost DEX and Accuracy. If you do get a chance to hit it, you'll do laughable damage. To hit the mob, you need to be right next to it, exposing yourself to increased chance of AOE damage. What's worse is, if you are boosting DEX and Acc, you aren't boosting MND, INT, and MP. Until Lv.50, that's no big deal, but if you're wearing a Ranger's Ring instead of a Medicine Ring at 50 (Cure spells +10%), you're not really living up to your potential.

That's the reason why I carry casting equipment and I have it macro'd so I can change on the fly =P.

As far as shield bash/weapon bash/shoulder tackle/smash axe/flat blade/etc. leave that to your melees. Surround yourself with quality players and you'll never need to shield bash again.

Circumstances change. Even the best players might not have the best luck and having something to fall back on is always safe.

It's a novelty when you're fighting easier stuff (only tough, even, decent, etc.) so they can use their weapon skills, but 0-5DMG isn't really helping your party accomplish anything.

I hope you're not talking about that phase between 20-30 because I'm still doing 15-25 consistently =P.

At any rate, end of beta event tonight. I'm gonna go prepare for it.