Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

[Celeal]

I know the thread's title is exaggerated, I am just trying to get an interesting discussion.

I have read some post that Retaliate proc rate is 30% (2nd hand source, not confirmed). From my experience, NIN's shadows has higher priority over shield and counter-attack. Level 74+ WAR/NIN, with 3 shadows from Ni, 3 shadows from Ichi, counter-attack from Retaliate when shadows are stripped... that is very good for avoiding hits.

From my exp party-tanking experience (75 PLD, 70 NIN), trying to hold hate against DD WAR/NIN (who try to avoid hate) is not easy. If the WAR/NIN is trying to tank with Retaliate, or if the DD WAR/NIN is going to push his hate threshold more because of Retaliate....

Any opinion ^^?

[Callisto]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

I was honestly wanting to see WAR/SAM using it more than /NIN, especially in a tanking attempt, as a single 3E anticipate can eat a full on pecking flurry, and with Counter procs between shadows as well as Zanshin procs here in there, not to mention being able to gear for a 6-hit GA build, I think there's some monstrous potential there.

I'm hoping some of our LS WARs will want to give it a shot soon, I'm trying to push people to go into For Great Science! mode for a week or so and test the crap out of new stuff, I'm normally the only one into this stuff but hopefully I can get some help, lol.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

While your last sentance was slightly boggling, I think I get your point.

I can see WAR/NIN's out aggroing PLD/NIN's on principal alone, let alone the fact that they now have retaliate to up the ante. I don't think it's fair to say WAR/NIN should outright "replace" PLD/NIN (no healing abilities, lower defense, etc) but I definitely think they can and should make effective and dynamic substitutes. But, it also seems like they are a substitute you'd have to plan in advance for, or even would use in specific circumstances. Either way though, I see more tanking flexibility from PLD/NIN, which ultimately can make them superior when played appropriately.

I can't think of anything else to say.

Boop.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

Less WARs are going to /sam now. SE made the sneak Ninjutsu sub level. It gave more retards a reason to sub /nin and never have any other subjob for Warrior.

Lol at 75WARs with no GA skill...

[nanatsu]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

I'm really interested in how Retaliate pans out too since WAR is my first love. 30% seems pretty huge although I'm kinda wondering why they didn't try to improve MNKs counter or guard rate instead. I'm not going to complain however. The more they add to war the more I'll feel like giving it a try. And any excuse for WARs to tank again is a good thing to me.

[Ziero]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

I know the thread's title is exaggerated, I am just trying to get an interesting discussion.

I have read some post that Retaliate proc rate is 30% (2nd hand source, not confirmed). From my experience, NIN's shadows has higher priority over shield and counter-attack. Level 74+ WAR/NIN, with 3 shadows from Ni, 3 shadows from Ichi, counter-attack from Retaliate when shadows are stripped... that is very good for avoiding hits.

Any opinion ^^?

Retaliate doesn't negate damage.

Fission mailed =(

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

Retaliate doesn't negate damage.

Fission mailed =(

That makes me sad. And also happy. Giving wars a JA version Counter seems kinda annoying. At least with retaliation they're still standing with the warrior mythos of dealing heavy damage, but not shirking away from the incoming blows.

[Celeal]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

Retaliate doesn't negate damage.

Fission mailed =(

Really, /cry .... omg

/em going to try it on my retired WAR to see what the heck is Retaliate.... Orz

But how about spell interruption?

In a normal counterattack from MNK, a MNK/NIN can successfully cast shadows when Counterattack fires off. Does this apply to Retaliate?

*off topic*
How about WAR/DNC? Does En-Drain from Drain Samba triggers during Retaliate?

If counter-attack rate is affected by WAR's accuracy + mob's evasion, I am looking at Shield Break or Full Break (WAR/SAM), or WAR/DNC's Quickstep.

Added:
Besides PLD/NIN, my intention also includes PLD/WAR and NIN/WAR in this thread.
______________________________
Just tried.. Drain Samba does not stack with Retaliate.

Now I am wondering what is the purpose of Retaliate?
If the WAR is in DD mode, Retaliate is going to add more hate for more damage output.
If the WAR is in tank mode, Retaliate is also going to lose less hate and have some damage output.

But unlike MNK's counterattack, Retaliate gains TP.

I am going to test WAR/MNK after dinner, to see if Retaliate stack or not stack with MNK's counterattack.

[Malacite]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

Retaliation is pretty hard fail IMO.

It doesn't stop hits, but does give TP (nice)

However, it's a lv 60 trait. I ranted about this in another thread. It's absurd that they said they want to make WAR a better tank, then give them this ability at 60. Well what about 30~59? Shit, it still doesn't help keep a WAR alive.

How about fixing armor classes & DEF/VIT already so WAR actually has a reason to equip heavy armor for more than stat boosts.

[Celeal]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

Hmmm, let me try to get the fact right ^^'

Retaliate:
(1) The higher delay of the WAR's weapon, more TP per retaliate?

(2) The higher base damage of the weapon, more dmg retaliate?

(3) The amount of Retaliate depends on number of mob's attack at the WAR:
If the mob never attack the WAR, no Retaliate.
If the mob attack the WAR once, one chance of Retaliate.
Given an interval of time, the faster mob attacks (more round of attack during the same interval), more chance *to apply* Retaliate. (Note that the proc rate is the same; I am not referring to the proc rate)

(4) Mob's attack and delay has not effect on the dmg output from Retaliate? (no confirmed, is there any cap for each hit from Retaliate?)

Thus:
(a) 2-handed weapon has advantage over single handed weapon for Retaliate.

(b) It is ideal to take a weak hit from the mob, and Retaliate a strong hit to the mob.

The 1st combo that comes into my mind is WAR/BLU using G.Axe, tanking weak mob (VT). Idk... this is very weird... Orz

[Ziero]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

How about fixing armor classes & DEF/VIT already so WAR actually has a reason to equip heavy armor for more than stat boosts.

It's rumored that VIT boosts retaliate's proc rate

And it stacks with shield blocks

Meaning a Turtle war in tanking gear with a shield will take less dmg and swing more often.

Basically, it gives defensive Wars more offensive might, which they need to hold hate.

[Celeal]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

VIT + Shield? No WAR/SAM or G.Axe?

It feels like a Hybrid-DD PLD tank but gear in reverse order~

For size 3 shield (Kite Shield) that a WAR tank practically can equip after Retaliate:
Hard Shield (lvl 48)
Ice Shield (lvl 72)
Koening Shield (lvl 73)
Acheron Shield (lvl 75)

Size 4 shield (Tower Shield):
Tatami Shield (lvl 72)

The rest is are size 1 or size 2. From level 60 to 71 the choice is .... the WAR got the shields that are not popular for PLD.

At this point I don't think Retaliate is designed for WAR to tank like a tradition solo tank does, or it has a lot of flaws in it for WAR tanking.

[Lmnop]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

Hi, guys. For some reason I wasn't getting flashing Warrior forum icons the entire time this thread has existed.

Since no one seemed to care in the thread where I originally posted my findings...

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/765266-post111.html

Playing with Retaliation.

3 minute duration/reuse. Just like Defender. Heading off to solo stuff and test it as well as /dnc nerf.

sound like someone using a Warp Scroll.

-------------------------

First fight, EP goblin bandit.
Hit 8 times, retaliated thrice. (37.5%)

Second fight, DC Goblin Mercenary.
Hit 16 times, retaliated 8 times. (50%)

Third fight, DC Velociraptor. [53 exp]
Hit 19 times, retaliated 4 times. (21%)

Interesting bit about Retaliation: These first 3 fights, I was always retaliate the first time I was struck. This makes me think it works on a Seigan/3E principle, with the chances lessening over time.

Fourth fight, DC Velociraptor again. [50 exp]
Hit 20 times, retaliated 6 times. (30%)

Fifth fight (and my last that I'll babble about, here), DC Cockatrice [86 exp]
Discounting times I was hit while petrafied, and also the time he hit me on approach (I was still registering as "out of range")
Hit 28 times, retaliated 13 times. (46.4%)

It's its own line in the chat log, so it reads:
"The Goblin bandit hits Repion for 34 points of damage.
Repion retaliates. The Goblin Bandit takes 165 points of damage."

Out of 91 swings, I retaliated 33 times.

This isn't nearly big enough to be accurate, but so far it's a 36% activation rate. Not too shabby. I would say the raptors give compelling evidence that level difference will hurt a lot, but the cockatrice doesn't seem to support that idea. If anything, maybe the higher evasion. But even though I'm only wearing +10 acc for this, I shouldn't be missing these guys...

One more thing: Retaliation swings cannot proc additional effects.

I also fought an EM rabbit later with similar Retaliation results.

I think using a shield would be great and all, but I'm siding with Celeal: each Retaliation is worth more with a greataxe. MUCH more. A handful of times, now, I've double attacked on the same round as a Retaliation. +40 tp is excellent. I did all these tests as /dnc and was gaining TP faster than I had a use for it.

I also hunted EP cactuars for Star Spinel thing with my sister (whm) as war/sam. It was quite fun with Seigan/third eye usually absorbing the damage that I don't avoid. (of course - they're just EP) Was nice to see one of my last anticipates be a counter, then retaliate within 10 seconds.

I was commenting to my sister that after 4 years, how it's amazing how WAR can still be such a blast (even on weak guys like those). We were noting that with a combo like war/sam, you never have a shortage of things to do these days. I, for one, hope I can fit war/sam into some tanking capacity (I'm thinking low-man NMs) as it's very enjoyable.

EDIT: bolded a section of my original post to answer one of Celeal's questions.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

I used retaliation throughout a merit party yesterday and having it up didn't have any noticeable impact but then again I wouldn't have expected it to since I was /NIN.

I can see it helping a war/dnc gain some more TP... but I'm curious to see the proc rate on VT/IT as opposed to DC things because I barely got any Retaliate procs against mamool.

[Lmnop]

Re: Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

At even a 50% proc rate, you're only getting hit once every 3 fights... it's always going to look like crap in that sort of scenario. Still, I imagine the proc rate will be as low as 20%.