Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

[nanatsu]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Well, I'll say one thing. I noticed the underwhelming power of the scythe early on, and used Great Axe from the dunes on up. x_x I agree that the Great Axe just rocks compared to anything else. But it's still a B weapon. And by most people's logic you shouldn't be using it >_> They'll cite things like "Well you'll miss more and your melee attacks will be weaker because of the lack of accuracy and attack." Unless my party was overhunting something, I never had that problem. I didn't have that problem whipping out a polearm or great sword as a war. Great Sword and Polearm were actually helpful because I could help with Distortion chains as war. I was actually asked one time to use Polearm for that very reason. (Even though a frag chain was just as awesome, but I couldn't always pull that off with the party members present).

I just think that if you want to try out different weapons, then the low levels are the time to do it. Unless it's a C-rated weapon, I just don't see the problem. You won't notice that much of a difference. And you'd be making yourself more versatile regardless. Your DD won't suddenly become gimp if you act smart about it and you can still put up the good numbers and draw the hate you need to.

If you try it, I'll give you a cookie. :p How's that for incentive~

EDIT: having said all that I still prefer Great Axe over everything else. I just don't think people should be jumped on for B-rated weapons from my own personal experience with them >_>

[Jenifa]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Whatever. I just finished partying as 37 DRK/WAR today with my B-rated Greataxe. I outdamaged even the great axe using war. Sturmwind for around 180 most of the time if boths hits connect. With Cor buffs on I easily broke 200. This was without having to bust out Souleater. Compare that to the dmg of Nightmare Scythe and Slice and get back to me. B rated weapons aren't the bane of the world at low levels. Geez.

what about DoT?

The war mustve been gimp.

isnt 180dmg low for sturmwind at 37?

using greataxe you are giving yourself -5 attack and -5 accuracy, if DRK's WS are too weak at 37 (i dont know i dont play it) then i kinda understand. But you would need a +5 acc (snipers ring) and a +5 attack (assailants ring) to just equal your A+ weapon. Again if you are getting damage bonus for GAXE vs monster type then again i understand. I guess you will join skill-up PT later to skill your main weapons and use GAXE in XP PT?

[Liquidedust]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Well, I'll say one thing. I noticed the underwhelming power of the scythe early on, and used Great Axe from the dunes on up. x_x I agree that the Great Axe just rocks compared to anything else. But it's still a B weapon. And by most people's logic you shouldn't be using it >_> They'll cite things like "Well you'll miss more and your melee attacks will be weaker because of the lack of accuracy and attack." Unless my party was overhunting something, I never had that problem. I didn't have that problem whipping out a polearm or great sword as a war. Great Sword and Polearm were actually helpful because I could help with Distortion chains as war. I was actually asked one time to use Polearm for that very reason. (Even though a frag chain was just as awesome, but I couldn't always pull that off with the party members present).

I just think that if you want to try out different weapons, then the low levels are the time to do it. Unless it's a C-rated weapon, I just don't see the problem. You won't notice that much of a difference. And you'd be making yourself more versatile regardless. Your DD won't suddenly become gimp if you act smart about it and you can still put up the good numbers and draw the hate you need to.

If you try it, I'll give you a cookie. :p How's that for incentive~

EDIT: having said all that I still prefer Great Axe over everything else. I just don't think people should be jumped on for B-rated weapons from my own personal experience with them >_>

Pre-level 40 I can agree that B-rated weapons have their uses but after 40 skill caps start to show (still a good WAR are always able to adapt to a situation and can use secondary weapons as well, Polearm vs. bats at level 32-38 in Garliage is a good example of this).


Level 30 93/89/86(A/B/C)

At level 30 an A-rated weapon has a cap of 93, B-rated 89 and C-rated 86 (you wont see the diff in +/neutral/- until level 61). By using a B-rated over and A-rated weapon at level 30 you sacrifice 4acc and 4 atk, while not a whole lot you have validate the usage of the weapon (e.g. does this bring something extra to the table).

Level 40 123/118/114 (A/B/C)

A diff of 5 atk you wont notice but when acc diffrences become 5+ from choosing a B-rated weapon you'll start to notice it moreso then when it were just 4 (for some reason game is very sensitive to acc + in 5-step incremeters).

Level 50 153/147/142 (A/B/C)

Well C weapons are most surely out the window now and 11 diff in acc/atk is very hard to validate to use in exp pt. The gap for a B-rated weapon is 6 atk/acc while painful it can wotk if you have the gear for it and fight a mob that is weak to for example piercing damage if you choose to wield a polearm (for example bats).

Level 60 203/196/190 (A/B/C)

Now B-rated weapons have slipped behind to a 7 atk/acc skill gap and you will really start to notice that the skillcap gap widens. C-rated weapons that are 13 behind now you shouldn't really use in an exp situation agaist VT or IT since you will miss far too much.

Level 65 227/223 (A+/A-), 214/212/209 (B+/B/B-), 202/201/200 (C+/C/C-)

At level 65 your A+ and A- rated weapons are both good options (and as WAR you'll will most likely be wanted to use Mistral Axe a lot once you ding 66).

The diffrence between an A and B rated weapon is now 9-16 acc/atk depending on if you compare it to Gaxe/Axe, now B-rated weapons really shouldn't be used until you can use skill+ ger for them or have merits in said B-rated weapons.

The diff between a A and C -rated weapon is 21-27 atk/acc, that is basically a Swordbelt+1, 2 Sniper's Ring+1 and Haubergeon+1's worth of atk and acc and a C-rate weapon should never be used in an exp-session at this level.

This trend continues at an accelerated rate and the gap widens all the way to level 75, however some B-rated weapons are of course still good options if you can gear for them.

An example of that are the joyeuse or ridill for a WAR in off-hand for faster TP gain, or the Harpe + Joyeuse combination in exp pt on Greater Birds in Lufaise Meadows.

You still need merits to support a B-rated weapon as well as gear, so it isn't really something to recommend unless you gear up/preparea build for it.

Well that's me, over and out . . .

[nanatsu]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

The war wasn't gimp at all. He had the right gear for his level. And 180 dmg isn't low for Sturmwind at 37, if you're fighting IT+. Even as War I rarely pulled off 180 Sturmwind at that level, and I had the best gear I could find. It's quite possible to pull off 200+ Sturmwinds, if the mob was debuffed enough and you are buffed up yourself, or if the mob is anywhere from Tough to Very Tough to IT low def. But 200+ consistently is pushing it a little for Sturmwind at that level unless you're subbing thf for Sneak Attack.

DRK has a too weak WS selection in Scythe for quite a while. And I wasn't getting a damage bonus from GAXE. GAXE are just great weapons with great DMG and delay. Compare Horror Voulge with 60 dmg, 489 delay and +8 Atk with the best scythe you can get at that level. Harvester: 53 dmg, 480 delay. With drks natural atk bonus it's not that hard to be up to par with a war using a great axe at that level. -5 atk means nothing when you already have 2 atk bonus traits. And at that level it doesn't take much accuracy to actually hit the mob. So that -5 accuracy can be easily negated. If you really wanted to you could use an Axe Belt for +5 skill in axe but I'm not sure if that applies to great axes as well. As for normal hits and DoT, you won't suffer. Shield Break and Sturmwind would make up the difference if any. And -5 attack isn't going to considerably lessen the dmg of your normal hits. You may not match an equally powerful Scythe in normal hits, but you'll be pretty darn close. Enough to pull hate and get killed. Which I managed to do once or twice. I did manage to have enough TP to be able to WS at the beginning and end of most fights during my DRK run. And even in high powered, PL, short fight pts I had 100% tp just about every fight.

I wouldn't recommend GAXE for your entire DRK career, and I'd advise you to keep your scythe and great sword leveled. I managed to do this, and I made sure I brought my great sword and scythe to every single party. If either of them fell behind too far, I soloed until I got them up to par. I wasn't particularly worried, because I was only leveling drk for stun anyway. But I was serious about doing it to the best of my ability. And I got a few compliments for what I did accomplish in my short stint as DRK. I know that Scythe will sooner or later begin to perform better than great axe. Much sooner than later. But for the early levels, Great Axe can increase your performance greatly.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

The war wasn't gimp at all. He had the right gear for his level. And 180 dmg isn't low for Sturmwind at 37, if you're fighting IT+. Even as War I rarely pulled off 180 Sturmwind at that level, and I had the best gear I could find. It's quite possible to pull off 200+ Sturmwinds, if the mob was debuffed enough and you are buffed up yourself, or if the mob is anywhere from Tough to Very Tough to IT low def. But 200+ consistently is pushing it a little for Sturmwind at that level unless you're subbing thf for Sneak Attack.

DRK has a too weak WS selection in Scythe for quite a while. And I wasn't getting a damage bonus from GAXE. GAXE are just great weapons with great DMG and delay. Compare Horror Voulge with 60 dmg, 489 delay and +8 Atk with the best scythe you can get at that level. Harvester: 53 dmg, 480 delay. With drks natural atk bonus it's not that hard to be up to par with a war using a great axe at that level. -5 atk means nothing when you already have 2 atk bonus traits. And at that level it doesn't take much accuracy to actually hit the mob. So that -5 accuracy can be easily negated. If you really wanted to you could use an Axe Belt for +5 skill in axe but I'm not sure if that applies to great axes as well. As for normal hits and DoT, you won't suffer. Shield Break and Sturmwind would make up the difference if any. And -5 attack isn't going to considerably lessen the dmg of your normal hits. You may not match an equally powerful Scythe in normal hits, but you'll be pretty darn close. Enough to pull hate and get killed. Which I managed to do once or twice. I did manage to have enough TP to be able to WS at the beginning and end of most fights during my DRK run. And even in high powered, PL, short fight pts I had 100% tp just about every fight.

I wouldn't recommend GAXE for your entire DRK career, and I'd advise you to keep your scythe and great sword leveled. I managed to do this, and I made sure I brought my great sword and scythe to every single party. If either of them fell behind too far, I soloed until I got them up to par. I wasn't particularly worried, because I was only leveling drk for stun anyway. But I was serious about doing it to the best of my ability. And I got a few compliments for what I did accomplish in my short stint as DRK. I know that Scythe will sooner or later begin to perform better than great axe. Much sooner than later. But for the early levels, Great Axe can increase your performance greatly.

Ok ok ok . . . calm down GAxe on DRK up to level 50-ish is not something you usually have to validate but think again what if they invited you to a PT since they had Scythe or Great Sword in mind.

They maybe already have a WAR and want Shadow of Death >> Sturmwind or have that THF that wants a Distortion opener with Power Slash.

Even though you might personally dish out craploads of damage this might not be the perfect thing since damage as well as damage migration is a collective effort.

And when I saw you say 180 damage on Sturmwind I must say I thought to myself that is slightly low, then I remembered you thought out of a DRK/WAR perspective. WAR seldom use Sturmwind without /THF and my own norm would be around 300-400 with SA (have seen 500-600's but those are only when DA manage to proc twice and land all hits).

And yes Axe Belt is a darn good piece of equip for DRK who subs WAR 30->60 most of the time and Great Axe is a good option to have skilled 30->50 as DRK but you must remember that parties in general don't remember that DRK can use GAxe and invite them for a SC option with either Scythe or Great Sword.

[nanatsu]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Yes as a DRK/WAR I don't see the insanely high ws numbers I would see as DRK/THF. I've wanted to try /THF but never could bring myself to do it. In any case, I always let the party know that I had all three weapons leveled and no one really asked me to switch to scythe. I even had it in my search comment, so I pretty much left nothing to chance

[Liquidedust]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Yes as a DRK/WAR I don't see the insanely high ws numbers I would see as DRK/THF. I've wanted to try /THF but never could bring myself to do it. In any case, I always let the party know that I had all three weapons leveled and no one really asked me to switch to scythe. I even had it in my search comment, so I pretty much left nothing to chance

To be honest you give up too much as DRK to validate a /THF sub pre 60 (well 66 even) WAR will give you berserk that is massive to put it Ooomph in both melee DoT and WS Spike damage and then later on Double Attack at 50.

Personally I do DRK/WAR since that is really is the best combination of damage for both WS and DoT on my DRK.

On another matter check the screen of what my freind Draganor did with Sturmwind about a year back when we did a Promy run, Memory Recepticles basically have no defense but still that is quite a massive number at level 30 (that is at WAR/NIN and not as WAR/THF even)

[Gaard]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

The irony of the GAxe wielding DRK anecdote is that it supports the notion that WARs should use GAxe -- not simply because it is our A+ weapon, but because it truly does rock.

Thank you.

[Lmnop]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

wow, lots of interesting posts from people I either don't see very often or have never seen at all. /welcome, Allakhazamers. Lots of very valid and interesting points.

First off, i'm stealing and re-using that line about Drks using greataxes validating the awesome-ness of greataxe.

Nanatsu, Axe belt is only Greataxe, i believe. there's a pick belt for /bst and one-handed axes. I believe this belt is only really useful 'til 40(tilt belt... maybe) or 48(all powerful life belt).

Sturmwind for 180 is great in the 30s. Although I personally never got to do war/thf through the 30s, my awesome friend never broke 300 on bats in garlaige as war/thf. however, in the 40s on crawlers and other soft mobs, I remember being disappointed any time the numbers dropped into the 300s region and /disgusted at the occasional 250. BUT that's ahead of the time of Nanatsu's example. The only reason I bring my personal example up is because I want to point out that there is a very significant damage increase in those levels so if you remember "Huge numbers" you're likely remembering your 40s.... I think... maybe... stuff. Anywho, I think 180 is damn good for a DRK.

Breaks: this died out on the first page, but shield break is incredible. If you think "they're overrated," look again. Before 30, the only +acc in the game for wars and drks is neckchopper and Vision Ring (which no one uses yet). neckchopper is prohibitively expensive for most 1st-job wars, while the amount of -evasion from shield break* is simply obscene. When I was allowed to war/mnk tank, I would always start with shield break and have tp to start the next one. That's saying a lot when you're only wearing +2 acc in gear.

OP: ok, so this is practicaly forgotten in this thread, but greataxe basically gives you an exp bonus. Putting it in your comment that you have greataxe (just having a seek comment, in fact) will get you invites from the good players. Pair that with a little research on these boards to how to do your job well and you'll fly to 30 with only basic quality equipment. GL with DRG =)

*Armando, you say Shield Break gives -40 evasion, but are we sure this isn't just the cap? It used to be based on Great Axe skill but then they changed it to a fixed number. Is it possible it's still based off of skill but caps at a certain point (likely around the time you get the next break -- 33)?

[Armando]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Yes, Axe Belt is for Great Axe skill, the one-handed axe belt is Pick Belt, which requires BST sub. For Great Axe-weilding DRKs, Axe Belt would be the best bet until Life Belt.

Regarding Shield Break's -40 Evasion, it's most likely a static number. When I first picked up a Great Axe at 25, my skill was at 0. I skilled it up on DC orcs in Yughott Grotto. Of course, my hitting rate sucked. However, as soon as I learnt Shield Break at 10 skill, and used it, my Accuracy would shoot up drastically. At level 24, Evasion caps at 69. Considering that they're mobs, let's be generous and assume 30 AGI, which would mean 15 more Evasion, bringing the mob's total up to 84. I, on the other hand, had under 20 DEX (let's say, 15, so 7 Accuracy) and at least 10 skill. That meant I had roughly 17 Accuracy when I could first use Shield Break. That's a 67 point gap. Mobs check High Evasion when they have 20 more Evasion than you have Accuracy. It took little skilling up before they stopped checking High Evasion to me with Shield Break on. If Shield Break were a percentage reduction, say, 25%, then landing Shield Break would bring the mob's Evasion down to 63 - I'd need 44 Accuracy, or 37 skill, for it to stop checking High Evasion. If it's a straight -40 reduction, then I'd only need 25 Accuracy, or 18 skill for it to stop checking High Evasion. From what I remember, I'm inclined to think it was a -40 reduction.

The best way to test would be Shield Breaking a mob at about level 10, and having a character with a net Accuracy of 21 check if it's Low Evasion.

[Jenifa]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

why is this in the warrior forum anyway lol

[Lmnop]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

The warriors are enjoying it =)

[Liquidedust]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

The warriors are enjoying it =)

He he any chance a WAR get to promote the awesomeness of Greataxe (and still stay on-topic) we take . Still I admit I got carried away a bit in the discussion but all in all, no need to use your future advanced jobs weapon on choice when you level WAR (since it will skill naturally on your other job).

Stick to Axe and Gaxe unless the situation needs another weapon (or another weapon is to prefer for other reasons). The rest is pretty much coverd in the other posts.

[nanatsu]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

Hrm, you know what? I honestly don't know anymore. One one hand, I think being the best war you can be means being able to contribute with just about any weapon. I think that's part of the philosophy of the warrior class. But on the other hand, philosophy and reality are two different things. Why shouldn't you focus on your best weapon? I don't think exp party dynamics in this game lend themselves very well to a player who's not specializing themselves in one area, and there are a lot of obvious advantages to focusing on your best rated weapon, rather than spreading your time and skill into many all at once.

And let's be honest, no one really expects you to have anything other than axe/great axe adn I doubt they would be impressed if you did. Meh. As much as I hate to admit it, you'd be saving yourself a lot of time and energy and grief if you stuck with your best weapon. To the OP, at the very least he'd be contributing his absolute best in any situation I suppose.

[Armando]

Re: Hate to be annoying, but weapon question

This is how I see it. B weapons are ok up until the higher levels when the difference between B and A truly becomes big. The thing about WAR's and B weapons is that during the level range that using B weapons would be fine (i.e. the gap in skill is still acceptable,) all the B weapons available are totally lackluster.
- Scythes are mediocre DMG-wise and WS-wise
- Great Swords are the same
- Swords downright suck with a few exceptions, which are basically the sword equivalent of axes in terms of DMG/Delay - may as well just use an Axe
- Polearms have great WS - Double Thrust is the Polearm equivalent of Sturmwind - but we can't use Lances, only Spears, and Spears are mediocre DMG-wise.
- H2H is great in the DMG and WS department, but our skill with it is abysmal, and if we want to get good DoT out of it we need Martial Arts from MNK sub.
- Even Axe is somewhat "meh," because the only reason Raging Axe does any better than Fast Blade is because of Axe's higher base DMG.

The fact is, if you ignore your party's specific available Skillchain partners, Great Axe simply blows all the weapons away because of its great DMG and great WS. Even if WAR had an A rank in Sword, Great Sword, Scythe, Polearm, and H2H, Great Axe would still usually be the best choice. The problem is the weapon's stats and the Weapon Skills themselves, the B ranking just makes it a bit worse.

One could argue having the other weapons levelled is good for Skillchains. I mean, who doesn't love it when you have a party member that can open Distortion? But, even that is just "meh." The difference between Level 1 and Level 2 skillchains is downright slim. By using a weaker weapon and weaker WS, you lose more damage than you gain. Level 1 Skillchains are completely all right - work with what you have! Hell, make Scission if you have to. Contrary to popular belief, VERY little mobs are actually strong to Earth. Not even Plantoids and Undead are strong to it. Beetles aren't either. The only things I can think of off of the top of my head are Cockatrice, Worms, Antica, and Antlions. And, yes, Stone is also the weakest of the nukes, but if you look at the levels in which BLMs learn nukes, they're already learning Stonega by the time they're learning Blizzard, and after Thunder the cycle starts over again with Stone II being the strongest. Burst-wise, it shouldn't be a problem either. I could understand Distortion if, for example, you have a THF closing, and the mob is actually weak to Ice; then it would be worth trying to ensure as much Skillchain damage as possible. But, aside from that, people still want to make Distortion just for the sake of making Distortion.

The safest, and usually most effective choice, really is carrying a Great Axe around. Carrying other weapons is cool, too. I used to do it, but I never did find any situations where I'd want to use one over my Great Axe, so I got tired of all that wasted inventory space.