Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

[Malacite]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

TP burns are always incredibly effective when you have plenty of T-VT targets to pull from.

Really now? Go make a TP burn without a BRD or COR and we'll see if you still believe that.

[Ziero]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

How is a pt of 4 DD, 2 support who constantly pull T-VT mobs to gain increased exp through chain bonus and make use of spamming their WS as soon as they hit 100 tp not a TP burn?

Please, tell me what you would call that.

You don't need to break chain 100 to have a TP burn, you don't need to kill in 30 seconds or drop things in two hits. It's a group of all melees with light support keeping a constant and consistent pull speed with little to no downtime between fights while gaining more Exp on average then a traditional Tank/SC/MB pt.

SC+MB are only needed on strong VT-IT, on T and low VT mobs, waiting for everyone to have 100 TP is often a waste.

Really now? Go make a TP burn without a BRD or COR and we'll see if you still believe that.

I have actually, and it's still better then a traditional SC+MB/Tank party targeting IT mobs and resting after every few fights.

[Karinya]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

Parties filled with two specific jobs being able to earn 20k+ an hour or Parties filled up with any combination of multiple jobs being able to earn 20k an hour? Which is better? (p.s. it's the second option)

It may be better, but it isn't good, unless "multiple" is all 20 jobs, which it isn't. "This isn't quite as imbalanced as that other imbalanced thing" is not a defense.

Imps and Colibri aren't the real problem

They're a substantial part of the problem. How else do you explain East Ronfaure[S] level syncing, or why every party in the late 50s is in the same camp? Or why people pray for imps when they get a family floor in Nyzul? Some mobs are weaker than others at the same level, but exp is based on level, so wimpy mobs equal easier exp.

Armando already addressed your other point about TP burns at lower levels, so I won't bother to repeat him. Any party will do better when fighting monsters of an appropriate level, but getting rid of your tank and spamming WS at 100 are not winning tactics at low and mid levels.

In terms of Subs, if I can go War I do it. On big mobs and the like, unless they have an AoE that can be absorbed by Shadows I prefer to go Drk. None of the hate issues other jobs get from SE+LR+WSs since you can plant all that on someone else, and a nice natural attack bonus traits certainly helps. Throw in some stuns against big attacks, and /drk sub really ends up being a lot of fun. Sam sub is only good when you're not going to melee things, only time I really make use of it is during that Ryaaf Assault mission, otherwise much of /Sam's potential just goes to waste.

A good Thf is a good DD. Not just for WS, but DPS as well.

I haven't seen a lot of THF/DRKs, but it does look like an interesting idea. Your attack bonus traits aren't going to come close to Berserk, though, and you also give up a little TP from DA.

THF/NIN undoubtedly does less damage than more damage-oriented subs. The question is whether or not you are relying on Utsusemi to stay alive. If not, then you should consider subbing something else.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

TP-Burn [ti-pi-burn] -noun. 1. A type of party set-up in the Massively Multi-Player Online RPG world of Final Fantasy XI in which a high amount of experience points are gained thru the quick succession of the defeat of multiple monsters, forming an almost endless EXP Chain. The name TP-Burn comes from the concept of melee characters equipping themselves or being supported with high amounts of Haste while using the the sub job Ninja, which provides access to the spell Utsusemi and is used to avoid damage. The melee characters then gain quick amounts of TP or tactical points in order to successively use weaponskills to defeat their opponents. The melee's are supported by back-line jobs that possess a high amount of MP or magic points in order to support the melee during the party, which is gained by the use of the back-line job's abilities such as Refresh and Sublimation, along with spells such as Mage's Ballad. The TP-Burn concept hinges on the act of providing the party's melee characters with enough killing speed and damage mitigation, as well as providing the supporting characters enough MP endurance, in order to continuously keep a flow of almost non-stop experience points coming to the party.

I was bored. But if you're not doing what this says, then you're probably mini-burning lol or cheat-burning with a PL.


I've always stood by the concept that THF was a powerhouse job pre-60 since the start of the game.

THF/MNK is a reign of terror until 33 and Viper Bite. Combo & SA are huge pre-30. THF's shine at this level and compete with other DD'ers I felt.

In addition to previous mention of Utsu, the great concept of subbing /NIN on THF also provides you an extra hit during a weaponskill and provides you extra WS damage during Sneak Attack (and Trick Attack post-60) if you have DEX or AGL as a modifer on the sub-weaopn, because those stats factor in to your total WS output (according to Wiki.)

I've used both /WAR and /NIN as a sub and their performance differences are negligible, imo, until you get Dancing Edge, but even then the difference in damage wasn't great. Whether /NIN or /WAR was better was always the big discussion of these forums in previous days.

33 to 59, I subbed /NIN because I was a gear-swapper. I got my accuracy from Sushi and TPing-gear. I swapped in DEx & AGL for WS. I remember hitting record numbers in the 30's and 40's and people use to wonder how. (Never out ws-damaged a Mithra tho. lol) I remember hitting 1200 ws w/a brd/cor pt on 55 pts, consistently.

After 59 and Dancing Edge, I did a bit more damage with /WAR because of the multi-hit WS that DE is. However, if you're pulling, /WAR is abyssmal vs fast moving monsters. So, in order to balance everything you do, you have to go /NIN.

However, THF's biggest selling point is haste. Eventually, you can get their haste capped out to 25% on gear and with a high damage main dagger and low delay sub or Mercurial Kris and you can get to a place to gain 100TP near every 30 secs, if you add a few other modifiers in like store-tp. That's when you start to be able to WS-SA or WS-TA at whim. That was the THF's biggest asset imo.

But I agree that when THF gets Relic dagger, the ballgame changes and THF can become a powerhouse on weak to piercing monsters. That's when the whole concept changes and DEX/AGL get replaced by ATT/ACC because of how relic dagger works. I watched a friend many times compete quite nicely against DRGs and SAMs on birds in TP-Burn.

THF has its moments of glory, just not as easily as other DD'ers at late to end-game.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

THF is good DD, just from everything I've read it is very gear dependant at 75. Before then, it's still a good DD, and only gets better as you level. You get SA, then TA for sexy Viper Bites, then Triple Attack, Assassin is good if you're a smart THF and start splitting your SA and TA up at this point.

I always end up inviting a THF to my parties since they make good pullers, and instead of maybe 1 time I never really regretted it, I never met many who were bad players, they parsed higher than some of the lolSAM's I've been with.

[Ziero]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

It may be better, but it isn't good, unless "multiple" is all 20 jobs, which it isn't. "This isn't quite as imbalanced as that other imbalanced thing" is not a defense.

They're a substantial part of the problem. How else do you explain East Ronfaure[S] level syncing, or why every party in the late 50s is in the same camp? Or why people pray for imps when they get a family floor in Nyzul? Some mobs are weaker than others at the same level, but exp is based on level, so wimpy mobs equal easier exp.

Armando already addressed your other point about TP burns at lower levels, so I won't bother to repeat him. Any party will do better when fighting monsters of an appropriate level, but getting rid of your tank and spamming WS at 100 are not winning tactics at low and mid levels.

I haven't seen a lot of THF/DRKs, but it does look like an interesting idea. Your attack bonus traits aren't going to come close to Berserk, though, and you also give up a little TP from DA.

THF/NIN undoubtedly does less damage than more damage-oriented subs. The question is whether or not you are relying on Utsusemi to stay alive. If not, then you should consider subbing something else.

Sadly you'll never find an event in this game where all 20 classes can function as equally well as the others. Not even the Maat fight or other solo battles are balanced like that. But having a system where 16-17 out of 20 classes can get 20k an hour pts is a lot better then a system where it was only 4-5 classes getting that much.

And again, TP burns, and it's entire concept has been around longer then Imps and Colibri. ToAU made it more viable to the widespread masses and extended the level range at which it could work effectively, but neither ToAU or the monsters it introduced is the real, core problem behind why TP burns are so effective. The entire Exp system is at fault. When you can gain the same amount of exp from killing two mobs 2 levels above you as you can from killing one mob 6 levels above you, and kill those two in half the time, it's a glaringly broken system. If they removed(or at least increased) the Exp gained cap on monsters XX amount of levels higher then you, while providing more bonuses to SC+MB damage and functionality, it would be possible to make the traditional style of Exp match TP burn's Exp per hour. However, even then players would still focus on more, weaker mobs then fewer, stronger mobs because one system is far more easier to succeed in then the other.

Again, Imps and Colibri aren't the cause of the TP burn craze, they're the side effect.

Also, while Attack Bonus traits may not directly make up for the loss of zerk, with Soul Eater and Last resort added in, the difference is much smaller. Though losing DA is certainly the worst part of going /drk over /war. But you'd only go /drk on super big game where an extra stunner would be nice to have.

[Mezlo]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

THF is a DD. Those that disagree have never played with a good THF...

Also, check out the gear. I TP in full THF homam, and then WS in Heca... That's a DD... Case closed.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

THF is a DD. Those that disagree have never played with a good THF...

Also, check out the gear. I TP in full THF homam, and then WS in Heca... That's a DD... Case closed.

Thanks the good lawd. If anything makes me /cry, its seeing lowbie theives that don't attempt to gear-swap on WS. It's like, free damage... use it. But most don't. Maybe they don't know.

[Malacite]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

Also, check out the gear. I TP in full THF homam, and then WS in Heca... That's a DD... Case closed.

>.> you sir, should thank your lucky stars this is not BG or you'd be eaten alive for this statement.

Full Homam? I don't think so. The feet & legs are a given, but the rest is questionable;

Denali & W. Turban are both much better TP pieces for the head slot, and Homan is also pretty solid though Antares and Skadi both give it a run for it's money. Enkidu can be nice as well for the STR & Attack, though it's not as good as the other two.

As for gloves, Homam is still good but if you can afford them go for the Dusk +1.


Full Heca for WS should really only be done for Mercy Stroke. Otherwise you'll want to use Antares or Skadi (even Dragon Harness) for the Body. Enkidu's Cap is very nice for SATA for the DEX AGI & ACC bonuses (unless Feint is in place, then Heca or Skadi)

Gloves are debatable since the DEX bonus is the same, it depends if you need the Acc or not (feint). Again, Hecatomb is automatic in the case of Mercy Stroke.

You get the idea. Very rarely will you ever find yourself using a full set of any particular gear for any given purpose, with a few notable exceptions (Usukane for example, but only on a Black Belt MNK)

[Mezlo]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

>.> you sir, should thank your lucky stars this is not BG or you'd be eaten alive for this statement.

Full Homam? I don't think so. The feet & legs are a given, but the rest is questionable;

Denali & W. Turban are both much better TP pieces for the head slot, and Homan is also pretty solid though Antares and Skadi both give it a run for it's money. Enkidu can be nice as well for the STR & Attack, though it's not as good as the other two.

As for gloves, Homam is still good but if you can afford them go for the Dusk +1.


Full Heca for WS should really only be done for Mercy Stroke. Otherwise you'll want to use Antares or Skadi (even Dragon Harness) for the Body. Enkidu's Cap is very nice for SATA for the DEX AGI & ACC bonuses (unless Feint is in place, then Heca or Skadi)

Gloves are debatable since the DEX bonus is the same, it depends if you need the Acc or not (feint). Again, Hecatomb is automatic in the case of Mercy Stroke.

You get the idea. Very rarely will you ever find yourself using a full set of any particular gear for any given purpose, with a few notable exceptions (Usukane for example, but only on a Black Belt MNK)

I was trying to be brief, but if you look at my statement i said THF homam not full homam. I was hoping it would be taken that I'd only equip the homam pieces a THF would find optimal, not the lolhead. My main point still stands, if you can TP in homam and WS in Heca, you are considered a DD...

[Mog]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

I'm confused. Just because a job can wear a particular set of gear makes it a really good DD?

And nobody denies that thieves can deal damage. Thieves that have good gear (homam, skadi, etc..) can do nice damage, especially on birds or anything weak to piercing. However, for endgame, if there's an option between a thief and a samurai for damage, the group's going to take the samurai.

[Mezlo]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

I'm confused. Just because a job can wear a particular set of gear makes it a really good DD?

I don't think this is particularly the case all of the time... All I'm saying is that Homam can be argued to be one of the best TP'ing pieces out there, not all the pieces but most. Heca can be argued to be one of the best WS'ing pieces out there. Take a job that is being questioned whether it is a DD or not, coupled with it being able to use these 2 sets of equipment, and i think the question is answered. The question is not "is thf the best DD out there?" the question is "is THF a DD or just a tool?" and my point is THF is a DD. is it used for TH4, yes. but is that the only reason for ahving a THF, no. A THF with BD and siricco alone can up good DPS, if you equip the THF with homam and have in macro in heca for WS's, it is definitely a DD.

[Karinya]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

However, for endgame, if there's an option between a thief and a samurai for damage, the group's going to take the samurai.

Probably, but is that an intelligent decision, or big-number-itis? Are they parsing the THFs against the SAMs? Certainly the THFs are far less likely to take an EES in the face and do 0 damage for the next few minutes, because of their hate manipulating abilities. At the same time, they can make everyone except the tank *also* less likely to take an EES in the face by TAing some hate onto the tank. The value of this is hard to quantify, but that doesn't mean you should value it at 0.

Even leaders of large LSs aren't immune to the idea that six hits for 30 are less than two hits for 80. But if you do the math, they're not. A parser will help with this problem, but not any of the more complex ones when different players' abilities start to interact.

For example, while Feint helps the SAM, the SAM isn't very likely to reciprocate with Shikikoyo on the THF (pretty much the only way they even *can* help anyone's damage other than their own -- compare Feint, Angon, Warcry, Full Break, Acid Bolts, etc.)

SAM obviously has a big advantage for fights where you don't melee on the main enemy but only swap in to WS, but there aren't that many of those around anymore.

[Malacite]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

Probably, but is that an intelligent decision, or big-number-itis?

SAM can put up fairly large numbers for very little effort, and I'm starting to take exception to this actually. I'm still very much pro-SAM, but the job is losing it's charm (largely from all the bandwagoning; I like to stand out a little.)

Now, with the exception of 5/5 Feint Merits which will greatly help everyone, a SAM is typically the superior option for DD, especially against NMs.

[Armando]

Re: Thief: Is it a DD or just a "tool"?

The way I see it, problem is you can always throw more SAMs at stuff (2-hander bonuses + innate pDIF and acc bonuses on their WS + Hagun + Overwhelm + 6 hit builds and Meditate + ability to make just about any SC = retarded) but THFs don't "stack" quite as nicely. You only need so many TAs over time on the tank. I think it only takes 2 THFs with max Feint to keep it on permanently, too.