Dagger Wield

[Taskmage]

Re: Dagger Wield

Two axes, two swings, double delay = same chance to double attack during a given period of time.

[GaelWanderling]

Re: Dagger Wield

this TP adjustment is not really noticeable unless your dual wielding 200 or more delay daggers sure i get .5 less tp, doesnt matter when tripple attack activates on one hand, i say blau dolch/sirocco or mercurial, is still a better setup than subbing /war, ofcourse war offers your the attk bonus and the option to use acc food, but in my party opinion i feel like a cow as thf/war, double attack doesnt go off often enough to make a diffrence dual wield totally crushes it most of the time even after the adjustment.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Dagger Wield

Exactly. Thf/nin is and always has been only good for two things before 50. Utsusemi and stats on offhand dagger. I dunno where people are getting this big idea about subbed dual wield giving you godly tp powers. It never did. It jactually makes you take another attack round to get to 100% tp in the same amount of time as someone using a higher delay weapon. And this was before the tp floor change not after.

Pre-TP adjustment, a LV34 THF/NIN wielding dual Federation Kukris would have an effective dagger delay of (182 + 182) *0.9 = 328 delay per round. Based on delay, they should have been receiving 8.4 TP per round, or 4.2 per hand. Instead, because of the TP floor, they received 10% per round.

That represents a flat 20% increase in TP generation over single-wielding the same weapon. I consider that significant.

[nanatsu]

Re: Dagger Wield

ummmm....2 axes...2 swing...2 chances to double attack on a warrior....yes that helps you gain tp...have you talked to a warrior after tp change? the nerf doesnt affect them, thf is meh...nothing a few merrits in dagger and triple attack to fix it...theres a reasong why SE balanced it so you cant say that dual wielders didnt make good tp, the only one really affected here is thf since they depended on making 100 tp for WS asap.

*this is directed to 50+ also, sorry if i might have misread somewhere though*

My comments were focused on lower than lvl 50 play, before DWII. DWI isn't that great and it does not create more chances for war to double attack vs one 1hand weapon. This is a common misconception. Taskmage already commented on it. You're attacking twice but you're attacking slower. You're still basically getting in the same number of attacks as you would with one weapon. And each attack triggers Double Attack. Maybe you get an extra attack in every few fights or so, but that's not significant at all. The only thing that would increase chances of double attack would be a significant increase in attack rate. DWII gives you a slightly higher chance of double attack because of the faster attack rate. At 50+.

I'll respond to Spider-Dan's comments a little later after I've had a chance to check on some things.

[nanatsu]

Re: Dagger Wield

Okay, Spider-Dan, correct me if I'm wrong (and this wouldn't be the first time) but doesn't the same TP floor prepatch apply to single wielding thf too? 5% TP for 34 thf/war means you need 20 swings to reach 100% TP. That'll take you about a minute to achieve if we throw out accuracy issues. Now with Dual Wield I you're looking at about 1 more round of attacks in about same amount of time. So you get 100% TP maybe around 3 seconds faster than a thf/war. Is that really so incredible? This is level 34. I admit that things change at 50, but come on. So pre-patch a 34 thf/nin can bust out Gust Slash 3 seconds faster than 34 thf/war? If you're talking about Viper Bite, everything is dependent on your SATA timers and you're usually waiting on them rather than waiting on TP. Getting a 3 second headstart on TP is moot in that regard. I just don't see how a 3 second advance in your TP is "significant." I'll concede to the fact that prepatch you might gain TP faster than a thf/war assuming you have 100% accuracy and there's no such thing as chance. But is it noticeable at the pre-50 level? Maybe over the course of an hour or two.

I don't know the validity of your 20% TP increase statement. It seems wrong to me, but I'm not going to explain my reasons why and just let you roll with that. BTW, feel free to pick apart my logic and lack of formulas and accurate math. If I'm undestanding something incorrectly please let me know.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Dagger Wield

Okay, Spider-Dan, correct me if I'm wrong (and this wouldn't be the first time) but doesn't the same TP floor prepatch apply to single wielding thf too? 5% TP for 34 thf/war means you need 20 swings to reach 100% TP. That'll take you about a minute to achieve if we throw out accuracy issues. Now with Dual Wield I you're looking at about 1 more round of attacks in about same amount of time. So you get 100% TP maybe around 3 seconds faster than a thf/war. Is that really so incredible? This is level 34. I admit that things change at 50, but come on. So pre-patch a 34 thf/nin can bust out Gust Slash 3 seconds faster than 34 thf/war? If you're talking about Viper Bite, everything is dependent on your SATA timers and you're usually waiting on them rather than waiting on TP. Getting a 3 second headstart on TP is moot in that regard. I just don't see how a 3 second advance in your TP is "significant." I'll concede to the fact that prepatch you might gain TP faster than a thf/war assuming you have 100% accuracy and there's no such thing as chance. But is it noticeable at the pre-50 level? Maybe over the course of an hour or two.

I don't know the validity of your 20% TP increase statement. It seems wrong to me, but I'm not going to explain my reasons why and just let you roll with that. BTW, feel free to pick apart my logic and lack of formulas and accurate math. If I'm undestanding something incorrectly please let me know.

In the old system at 100% accuracy (only used to show the diff here) it would be like this if (ab)using the TP Floor with Spider-Dans example.

Pre-TP adjustment, a LV34 THF/NIN wielding dual Federation Kukris would have an effective dagger delay of (182 + 182) *0.9 = 328 delay per round. Based on delay, they should have been receiving 8.4 TP per round, or 4.2 per hand. Instead, because of the TP floor, they received 10% per round.

That represents a flat 20% increase in TP generation over single-wielding the same weapon. I consider that significant.

(no TP Floor / TP Floor - seconds elapsed)

1. 8% (8.4%) / 10% - 5.5s
2. 16% (16.8%) / 20% - 11s
3. 25% (25.2%) / 30% -16.5s
4. 33% (33.6%) / 40% - 22s
5. 42% (42.0%) / 50% - 27.5s
6. 50% (50.4%) / 60% - 33s
7. 58% (58.8%) / 70% - 38.5s
8. 67% (67.4%) / 80% - 44s
9. 75% (75.8%) / 90% - 49.5s
10. 84% (84.2%) / 100% - 55s
11. 92% (92.6%) / 110% - 60.5s
12. 101% (101%) / 120% - 66s

Basically if you couldn't (ab)use the TP floor you had to wait for TP instead of waiting for your SA(TA) Timers. Also single-wielding a dagger gives a TP return of 6 (5+1) on Viper Bite while dual-wielding gives you a head start TP Return of 11 (5+5+1) all on using the old formula due to how dual-wield is used during WS.

You basically have 1 attack head-start after you WS thanks to dual-wield. So yes the TP gain for a THF with Spider-Dans setup did get TP 20% faster while dual-wielding (compared to not be able to use the TP floor) and always had TP ready when SA(TA) timers were up.

For sake of comparison I'll post the same for single-wielding the same dagger in the old system also with 100% acc (just for mathematical use).

1. 5% (5.05%) - 3.03s
2. 10% (10.1%) - 6.06s
3. 15% (15.15%) - 9.09s
4. 20% (20.2%) - 12.12s
5. 25% (25.25%) - 15.15s
6. 30% (30.3%) - 18.18s
7. 35% (35.35%) - 21.21s
8. 40% (40.4%) - 24.24s
9. 45% (45.45%) - 27.27s
10. 50% (50.5%) - 30.30s
11. 55% (55.55%) - 33.33s
12. 60% (60.60%) - 36.36s
13. 65% (65.65%) - 39.39s
14. 70% (70.70%) - 42.42s
15. 75% (75.75%) - 45.45s
16. 80% (80.80%) - 48.48s
17. 85% (85.85%) - 51.51s
18. 90% (90.90%) - 54.54s
19. 95% (95.95%) - 57.57s
20. 101% (101%) - 60.60s

Compared to single-wielding the same dagger there isn't much benefit of dual-wield with just 10% delay reduction (the old TP floor were at 180 delay btw) but it is still 5s or 1 combat round faster.

Daggers delay added up pretty well with the 60s timer of SA(TA) in old system at 100% accuracy (which does not happen over time though). All TP Floor did were to (ab)use the system and assure a slightly higher TP gain combined with a higher TP return of WS (in the case of daggers/THFs almost double TP return on Viper Bite).

Oh and for odd fractions, they are always floor() until they can create a full integer and then they are added to current TP Total (odd fractions are dropped at the time of a WS and recalculated from scratch again)

[Kittyneko]

Re: Dagger Wield

I personally have always thought THF/RNG would be a great combo, but /nin had always ruled. I see this as SE adjusting /nin more that screwing THF. THFs can use bow, crossbows and some guns, having Ranged weapons skills, sharpshot, barrage and Accuracy Up I and II seems good to me.

Accuracy Bonus I (DRG30, RNG10): +10
Accuracy Bonus II (RNG30): +22 (is +12 but stacks with Accuray Up 1 for +22 total)

THF/RNG with a +ATT shield and macro'd +R.Acc gear seems like a very good option to me. THF has C+ in Marksmanship, the same rating SAMs have in archery. Acid bolts, bloody bolts, sleep bolts, slugshot /RNG has just always been what I wanted to sub to THF when I level THF more. If I could only afford a Viking Shield.

I don't like Thf/Rng, the accuracy of ranged weapons is just not enough. Besides, also for soloing /nin is a lot more usable, far away pulls and stuff.. + the little bit Agi bonus. But I guess everyone has it's own style. I know a Thief who used /rng without problems up to level 70, now uses /nin, cause she decided it's better and more fun.

[nanatsu]

Re: Dagger Wield

In the old system at 100% accuracy (only used to show the diff here) it would be like this if (ab)using the TP Floor with Spider-Dans example. [stuff]

Well I figured it would only be one round of attacks either way. Thanks for doing the math on it XD

[Spider-Dan]

Re: Dagger Wield

Okay, Spider-Dan, correct me if I'm wrong (and this wouldn't be the first time) but doesn't the same TP floor prepatch apply to single wielding thf too? 5% TP for 34 thf/war means you need 20 swings to reach 100% TP. That'll take you about a minute to achieve if we throw out accuracy issues. Now with Dual Wield I you're looking at about 1 more round of attacks in about same amount of time.

Actually, you're looking at ~360 less delay to 100% TP, which is a 6 second difference. When you account for the fact that single-wield VB returns 5% TP and DW VB returns 10%, that means that single-wield takes about 57 seconds (with perfect accuracy) to reach 100%, and THF/NIN takes about 49 seconds to reach 100% TP. 8 seconds faster on every WS is, again, significant.

So you get 100% TP maybe around 3 seconds faster than a thf/war. Is that really so incredible? This is level 34. I admit that things change at 50, but come on. So pre-patch a 34 thf/nin can bust out Gust Slash 3 seconds faster than 34 thf/war? If you're talking about Viper Bite, everything is dependent on your SATA timers and you're usually waiting on them rather than waiting on TP.

Pre-50, your timers are usually waiting on your TP, not the other way around.

I'll concede to the fact that prepatch you might gain TP faster than a thf/war assuming you have 100% accuracy and there's no such thing as chance.

You'd gain TP faster, period. THF/NIN would have slightly more accuracy (offhand stat bonus) and "chance" doesn't play much of a factor (there is no 2A or 3A to potentially catch a single-wielder up).

I don't know the validity of your 20% TP increase statement. It seems wrong to me, but I'm not going to explain my reasons why and just let you roll with that. BTW, feel free to pick apart my logic and lack of formulas and accurate math.

I already explained the math, but I'll do it again. Under the old system:

TP return = [(delay - 180) / 256] * 6 + 5

Single-wield 182 delay dagger: [(182 - 180) / 256] *6 + 5 = 5.05 TP per round (rounded down to 5.0), based on delay

theoretical Dual Wield 182 delay daggers: [(328 - 180) / 256] * 6 + 5 = 8.46 TP per round (rounded down to 8.4), based on delay
actual TP return of dual 182 delay daggers: 10% per round

8.4 * 1.20 = 10.08 TP per round

There's your 20% increase.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Dagger Wield

Actually, you're looking at ~360 less delay to 100% TP, which is a 6 second difference. When you account for the fact that single-wield VB returns 5% TP and DW VB returns 10%, that means that single-wield takes about 57 seconds (with perfect accuracy) to reach 100%, and THF/NIN takes about 49 seconds to reach 100% TP. 8 seconds faster on every WS is, again, significant.


Pre-50, your timers are usually waiting on your TP, not the other way around.


You'd gain TP faster, period. THF/NIN would have slightly more accuracy (offhand stat bonus) and "chance" doesn't play much of a factor (there is no 2A or 3A to potentially catch a single-wielder up).


I already explained the math, but I'll do it again. Under the old system:

TP return = [(delay - 180) / 256] * 6 + 5

Single-wield 182 delay dagger: [(182 - 180) / 256] *6 + 5 = 5.05 TP per round (rounded down to 5.0), based on delay

theoretical Dual Wield 182 delay daggers: [(328 - 180) / 256] * 6 + 5 = 8.46 TP per round (rounded down to 8.4), based on delay
actual TP return of dual 182 delay daggers: 10% per round

8.4 * 1.20 = 10.08 TP per round

There's your 20% increase.

(this is on DW1 only, pre-50 with old formula)

There is one problem with the way you count when comparing single-wielding vs. dual-wielding in the old system. That is combat round time:

For a single-wieled dagger the combat round is 3.03 seconds for a delay 182 dagger while it becomes 5.5 seconds for a dual-wielder [(3.03*2)*0.9].

If dual-wielding were done weapon independently yes you would gain 20% increase up to 100% TP but due to how combat rounds are calculated that 20% increase is more to a ~10% increase (it is still a gain though).

60.6s vs. 55s is 5.6 seconds faster which is approx 9% increase in TP gain to 100% (in this case 101% due to the TP formulas). However if we disregard how combat rounds work in-game and just do the straight up math for it (compare formula to formula) yes then it is a 20% increase. In practice however it is not.

If we now take the head-start of 5% vs. 10% TP off WS this becomes 57.57 seconds versus 49.5 seconds and here you have you a more marked advantage (a combat round is so much longer for dual-wield versus single-wield).

You still don't reach a 20% advantage however, but it is an increase to 14.1% at least or an ~8.1 second advantage if you so wish.

When you reach DW2 at 50 and once you get Triple Attack all of this is thrown out of the window however.