Dual Wield for THF

[Mithrael]

I suppose the difference is in semantics... but there is a difference for getting additional TP and "adding another hit." Adding another hit would make the Weapon Skill stronger, and there would no reason to sub anything other than NIN.

This holds true for WAR/NIN. While rampage may return more tp, it definitely does not increase Rampage's DMG by 1/5.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Mithrael
I suppose the difference is in semantics... but there is a difference for getting additional TP and "adding another hit." Adding another hit would make the Weapon Skill stronger, and there would no reason to sub anything other than NIN.

This holds true for WAR/NIN. While rampage may return more tp, it definitely does not increase Rampage's DMG by 1/5.

Err, actually it does increase the damage. By quite a bit (1/5th sounds right). That's why you see WAR/NINs with axes instead of WAR/THFs with axes.

There's also the fact that you can get 9 or 10 TP from Rampage (15 full hit) when dual wielding a sword and axe. Sword = 5 TP, Axe = 6 TP. This means that either the axe or the sword would have missed (9 TP= 5 TP (sword)+ 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + Axe miss, 10 TP= 6 TP (Axe) + 1 + 1+ 1 + 1 + Sword Miss)

And



How do I get a sword skill up when using an axe WS unless the offhand weapon also has an attack?

[Mithrael]

Guess I'll have to take your word for it at this point. By Square's definition, it doesn't add a hit. I can't see any reason why they would intentionally falsefy the information, so it's either a mistake, or there is somethign else going one that isn't quite understood.

In my experience of partying with a THF since lv.40, THF/NIN weapon skills aren't higher than THF/WAR (usually war > nin).

In my experience of DRK/NIN, I don't do 1/5 less damage when I have a shield in one hand instead of another axe. Or similarly, I don't do 1/4 less with Vorpal Blade with Sword/Shield instead of Sword/Sword. However, I only tested that for an hour or two, and I wasn't as meticulous about keeping data written down back then. Guess I'll have to buy another darksteel axe and test it again.

As far as the skillup on sword, that's explained fine by square's explanation.

[imac2much]

This has always been something I've wondered about. Just like many people, I assumed that because of the extra TP gained, that corresponded to an extra hit in the WS... however, from that S-E answer, this can be debated. I'm not sure either way, as I've never actually "tested this", since most WS have such a variance in damage even if all hits connect that this is hard to tell.

Perhaps the best way to test this would be with a NIN/THF. On relatively weak creatures where our ATK and STR are much higher than the corresponding target's DEF and VIT, I think much of the damage variance of WS's (considering all hits connect), is the chance of critical hits on some swings. This might be totally wrong, but just my speculation. Perhaps the best way to test would be a NIN using a 1-hit 1-handed weapon WS with sneak attack, then repeat by adding another weapon in the offhand. Sneak attack guarantees a critical (x 1.25 damage), so one damage variable will at least be accounted for. My NIN is only 37 but I maybe I can test this on some evil mad sheep or something.

Examples of 1-hit physical WS of 1-handed weapons that stack with sneak attack that NIN/THF can use:
Dagger: Wasp Sting, Shadowstitch, Viper Bite
1h Sword: Flat Blade, Circle Blade (? not sure about AE WS)
Club: Brainshaker, Skullbreaker, True Strike
Katana: Blade: Rin, Blade: Ten

Hm I think that's it. I might try testing this sometime, but if someone else wants to jump the gun be my guest :sweat:

[Ixaera]

For the record I have both drk and nin at full sub level. When I exp with my set, I go as thf/drk.

A full hit DE (I get 9% back -- single weapon) with no job abilities activated besides SATA hits for ~700 on a sand cockatrice.

When I do other things, I take thf/nin for the flexibility. A full hit DE on thf/nin (14% back) does about 700 (my reference mob is ZM6 ants), usually slightly less than my thf/drk though not by much...due to the slightly decreased str and att, or possibly due to greater ant defense.

So, no, I think it's pretty clear the extra hit is *not* adding damage and if it is, it isn't enough to notice.

Something interesting though. Normally when I farm Yagudo, I take dagger/sword. DE (I don't SA it), does ~600 on a full hit. Last time, I decided swinging my club while farming would be a useful way to skill it up high enough for a skillup party. My skill began at 34.

My first few full hit DEs with that club on would not even break 500. The club was the only difference. However, now that my club skill is up over 100, the DEs versus those same Yagudo now do 550 on average. Keep in mind my offhand sword is about 36 damage, and I'm skilling up right now with a warp cudgel (15 damage). Obviously, if the club were hitting 5 times also, I would be doing a LOT less DE damage. But it's only 50 less. (For reference, my sword skill is 176, dagger 219.)

[imac2much]

Assuming you're using club in offhand (since you are using dancing edge so dagger main), the claim that people are debating is whether the offhand weapon does at least ONE extra hit... not added damage for all 5 hits of DE.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Mithrael
I suppose the difference is in semantics... but there is a difference for getting additional TP and "adding another hit." Adding another hit would make the Weapon Skill stronger, and there would no reason to sub anything other than NIN.

If you look at the test I did, it did make the weapon skill stronger. Single wield Wasp Sting did 48 damage, Dual Wield Wasp Sting did 96 damage. One extra hit.

When I say "adds a hit," I don't mean that you get another WS hit, per se. (You aren't going to get an extra 500 damage from SATAVB.) I mean, you get the WS plus one attack at normal melee damage. Adding one normal dagger slash to VB or DE isn't going to change much (except TP return, obviously).

I'm not sure how the description from Squenix contradicts this. They say that the first two hits when DWing return normal TP, but they don't specifically say anything about whether or not DWing adds a hit.

[Cali]

Thank you for all your replies.

I totally forgot about the weapon ranking, and was going to wield a D ranked sword. Thanks for reminding me.

Continue the discussion if you wish ^^ I am happy that this is a discussion and not a flamewar...(you know sometimes people flame for unneccessary things) I am currently a MNK, so I can't provide any more information useful to the topic, all I can say is: when I played my NIN, katana/sword gave retsu an extra hit, whereas katana/katana didn't. Try different combo of weapons? ^^

[Ixaera]

Rugal -- Yes, I was on the side that the offhand weapon adds one extra hit -- in the way of adding its damage to the first hit.

It seems to me (but I have no evidence other than the club story) that it's:

Hit #1 = regular attack round damage + DE damage multiplier (i.e. both weapons hit if dual weilding) and return a regular attack round's tp.

Hit #2-5 = main hand weapon's damage + DE damage multiplier, returning 1% tp per.

This is what the tp adds up to. It's also what the damage difference between dagger/sword DE and dagger/club DE was telling me.

This also tells me how a single wield SATA+DE is not obviously smaller than a dual wield SATA+DE. The extra damage is basically 40-60 points, which is well within variance range of SATA+DE.

I have absolutely no doubt that the offhand weapon is involved in WS in some way. There is proof in Nny's screenshot, when her sword leveled up mid-ws, even though it's an axe ws. I've experienced that too, without the offhand weapon landing a hit otherwise. (What I mean is, I've hit DE and had club gain points even though the previous and following rounds, the club missed, which limits the skill gain to happening during the weaponskill and not before or after with a normal hit.)

[Darkedge]

Originally posted by Cali
all I can say is: when I played my NIN, katana/sword gave retsu an extra hit, whereas katana/katana didn't. Try different combo of weapons? ^^

I think you're onto something. When I've seen War/Nin using Raging Axe with 2 Axes, it didn't seem to spectacular. When partying with a 40~ war/nin using axe/sword, she did good damage and her WS were good.

[imac2much]

Good point on the increased damage Dan. However, are we sure if it just adds a normal regular hit, or if it considered an extra WS hit (therefore with the required damage modifier). I can't see the dmaage any of your WS did in the screenshots except single wield wasp sting (or i'm blind).

Perhaps it's because wasp sting has a 1x damage modifier that we can't tell if it's a melee hit or a WS hit. Maybe use something that has a 2x or more damage modifier for hit.

However, the only 1 hit 1h weapon WS that has a higher damage mod than 1x seems to be Blade: Ten, so we need a higher level NIN to test this.

[imac2much]

According to Apple Pie and Studio Gobli, Dual Wield does indeed add an extra hit to your WS. However, the fTP multiplier is always 1.00 regardless of the weapon skill and the TP you have. Also, this only applies to physical WS (not elemental WS like burning blade).

If you want to know more about fTP, etc, check the weapon skill thread I made in the Paladin forums (a basic translation of the Studio Gobli site).