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I recently posted this on Allak as well, still I figure this might have some promise and wanted some opinions.
I've been THF/WAR since 30 and was THF/MNK before that. Many people have asked me why I've stayed /WAR and not gone /NIN like so many others.
To me it seemed a perfectly logical progression of skills and levels where each sub had its advantages. Boost to Berserk to Dual Wield + Triple, with each contributing something special. Before last night, I had mapped out my plan,
1-29: MNK
30-54: WAR
55-...: NIN
This was to maximize damage output as I don't get hit and am a decent enough puller to come in at high HP if I get hit at all. Until LAST NIGHT, I was certain that this was the way to go and it was my plan.
I recently leveled my NIN up high enough for it to be subbed to my main and I decided to take it out for a whirl. I was 53THF/26NIN. I figured that dual wield would be better TP and I would be able to create more of those ever-so-lovely Distortion chains with a DRK that gains TP supprisingly fast (if not a little bit irregularly as all heavy melees do). TP doesn't add to Viper damage so I figured /NIN would be a more logical choice as we had two people MBing, with BRD assistance.
I was wielding a Corsairs and a Lust dagger, both are very similar delay and was fighting beetles. I noticed something odd, however, my TP was always a multiple of 5. I never took damage and each hit, regardless of dagger netted 5 TP.
With my THF/WAR and just wielding a corsairs and strike shield I would get 6% TP a hit back fairly often.
Corsairs is 206 delay. Lust is 201 delay. Assuming that TP gain is based ENTIRELY on delay once it has been calculated lets make some brief calculations:
188 is approximately the delay per dagger. That is to say that wielding the equivilent of a 188 dagger netted me 5% TP each and every hit without fail.
Assuming that TP gained is directly proportional to delay of a weapon:
188 / .05 = 206 / X
X = .0547 meaning that I gain 5% TP about 1/2 the time and 6% TP the other half. I need to test this over, say 200 hits and see what the actual number is. Still this gets very interesting as it might well be that NIN does not build more TP.
Now personally, if this is truely the case, I would consider /WAR an equivilent TP builder and a better damager. NIN attacks 15% faster and a warrior that simply activates Berserk whenever it is available will deal 15% more damage. Figuring in that warrior will not trigger then when there is no battle and that he can also use it before WS, his damage looks more impressive. Of course + stats on a second weapon can perhaps give this a run for its money but that is not the point of my post.
Back to the real issue of TP gain. Faster TP = more WS (especially with a RNG, good SAM, or someone that will gain TP faster than you) and that's more MBs etc.
So there are two complications that need to be looked at. Double and Triple attack. When the THF is level 50-54 WAR will clearly build TP faster (if the TP generation before double was equal as I currently believe). The ability to attack an extra time, say 10% of the time (does anyone know an exact % for double attack). That means that the average "round" (assuming it all hits) will result in 5.47 * (1 + .1) / 206 WAR vs 5 / 188 against NIN.
This seems pretty cut and dry if my assumption about TP being based entirely on the ending, calculated delay.
Now lets look at the later case, post 55 when WAR has access to Triple and Double and NIN weighs in Triple on top of that Dual Wield II it got at 50. One assumes, faster attack speed, plus something that will then trigger more often = more TP.
So once again, as I do not know the exact % of the time that Triple triggers, I will use 10%.
NIN: 5 / 188 * (1 + .2) = 3.191 TP per second
Keeping in mind that if Double and Triple BOTH trigger, Double does nothing:
WAR: 5.47 / 206 * (1 + .2 + .1 - (.2 * .1)) = 3.398 TP per second
This might not seem like a lot, but in a game where you pay 400k to squeeze another +1 dex into your character, this seems significant. To top that off you have Attack Up at level 60 and Warcry at 70. Toss in the fact that EITHER double or triple could trigger during a dancing edge for more damage (I believe). If anyone sees holes in this, or has had a different experience, please reply.
There will be spots that I'll still need to sub NIN for blink pulling, but for now I've taken so few hits that my evade is about 10 levels before where it needs to be (going to get SMACKED by high tier orcs while attempting Gold coins next time I log on to try to fix this). Even pulling in Gara I didn't have issues with mean spells as I could run out of range if it was TOO mean. The only things that gave me issues were the Sleep and stun spells, and often times they cast the aga version.
My new plan is THF/WAR -> 73
74-75 will be /NIN as NI is just too darn sweet to pass up, (solo HNMs? {Yes, Please}).
Anyway, let me know your thoughts, and try to keep the main focus on TP gain.
I've been THF/WAR since 30 and was THF/MNK before that. Many people have asked me why I've stayed /WAR and not gone /NIN like so many others.
To me it seemed a perfectly logical progression of skills and levels where each sub had its advantages. Boost to Berserk to Dual Wield + Triple, with each contributing something special. Before last night, I had mapped out my plan,
1-29: MNK
30-54: WAR
55-...: NIN
This was to maximize damage output as I don't get hit and am a decent enough puller to come in at high HP if I get hit at all. Until LAST NIGHT, I was certain that this was the way to go and it was my plan.
I recently leveled my NIN up high enough for it to be subbed to my main and I decided to take it out for a whirl. I was 53THF/26NIN. I figured that dual wield would be better TP and I would be able to create more of those ever-so-lovely Distortion chains with a DRK that gains TP supprisingly fast (if not a little bit irregularly as all heavy melees do). TP doesn't add to Viper damage so I figured /NIN would be a more logical choice as we had two people MBing, with BRD assistance.
I was wielding a Corsairs and a Lust dagger, both are very similar delay and was fighting beetles. I noticed something odd, however, my TP was always a multiple of 5. I never took damage and each hit, regardless of dagger netted 5 TP.
With my THF/WAR and just wielding a corsairs and strike shield I would get 6% TP a hit back fairly often.
Corsairs is 206 delay. Lust is 201 delay. Assuming that TP gain is based ENTIRELY on delay once it has been calculated lets make some brief calculations:
188 is approximately the delay per dagger. That is to say that wielding the equivilent of a 188 dagger netted me 5% TP each and every hit without fail.
Assuming that TP gained is directly proportional to delay of a weapon:
188 / .05 = 206 / X
X = .0547 meaning that I gain 5% TP about 1/2 the time and 6% TP the other half. I need to test this over, say 200 hits and see what the actual number is. Still this gets very interesting as it might well be that NIN does not build more TP.
Now personally, if this is truely the case, I would consider /WAR an equivilent TP builder and a better damager. NIN attacks 15% faster and a warrior that simply activates Berserk whenever it is available will deal 15% more damage. Figuring in that warrior will not trigger then when there is no battle and that he can also use it before WS, his damage looks more impressive. Of course + stats on a second weapon can perhaps give this a run for its money but that is not the point of my post.
Back to the real issue of TP gain. Faster TP = more WS (especially with a RNG, good SAM, or someone that will gain TP faster than you) and that's more MBs etc.
So there are two complications that need to be looked at. Double and Triple attack. When the THF is level 50-54 WAR will clearly build TP faster (if the TP generation before double was equal as I currently believe). The ability to attack an extra time, say 10% of the time (does anyone know an exact % for double attack). That means that the average "round" (assuming it all hits) will result in 5.47 * (1 + .1) / 206 WAR vs 5 / 188 against NIN.
This seems pretty cut and dry if my assumption about TP being based entirely on the ending, calculated delay.
Now lets look at the later case, post 55 when WAR has access to Triple and Double and NIN weighs in Triple on top of that Dual Wield II it got at 50. One assumes, faster attack speed, plus something that will then trigger more often = more TP.
So once again, as I do not know the exact % of the time that Triple triggers, I will use 10%.
NIN: 5 / 188 * (1 + .2) = 3.191 TP per second
Keeping in mind that if Double and Triple BOTH trigger, Double does nothing:
WAR: 5.47 / 206 * (1 + .2 + .1 - (.2 * .1)) = 3.398 TP per second
This might not seem like a lot, but in a game where you pay 400k to squeeze another +1 dex into your character, this seems significant. To top that off you have Attack Up at level 60 and Warcry at 70. Toss in the fact that EITHER double or triple could trigger during a dancing edge for more damage (I believe). If anyone sees holes in this, or has had a different experience, please reply.
There will be spots that I'll still need to sub NIN for blink pulling, but for now I've taken so few hits that my evade is about 10 levels before where it needs to be (going to get SMACKED by high tier orcs while attempting Gold coins next time I log on to try to fix this). Even pulling in Gara I didn't have issues with mean spells as I could run out of range if it was TOO mean. The only things that gave me issues were the Sleep and stun spells, and often times they cast the aga version.
My new plan is THF/WAR -> 73
74-75 will be /NIN as NI is just too darn sweet to pass up, (solo HNMs? {Yes, Please}).
Anyway, let me know your thoughts, and try to keep the main focus on TP gain.
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