For all those wanting, or playing THF/WAR

[Vertigo]

When I started the game my goal was to get both Double Attacka nd Triple Attack. Up to level 55 Warrior was an awesome sub, didn't cost any, gave me berserk which upped damage a lot, and provoke which could be very useful.

I was planning to keep the warrior sub till 60, but now I really start feeling the downsides of warrior-sub:

Yesterday I had a party at Valley of Sorrows, and being a thief people made me pull Velociraptors. That's great, besides that they walk 2x faster (like flee) than me. Everytime I'd get one or two hits (flee has downtime of 5 mins .. ) and I felt really.. gimped! With nin I wouldn't have gotten hit at all..

Combine that with factors such as double wield, double/triple cancel eachother out in 1 order, utsusemi, and nin seems the way to go

[PhoR]

that is the whole point of this game though Vertigo.

each sub has it's advantages.
for pulling velociraptors, nin sub will be better.
for fighting high high def mobs, war will be better.
for low levels, mnk is probably the best sub.

there's just not one "universally best" sub.
that's why you gotta "catch em' all" so to speak.

if there was one best sub, there would be 0 diversity and it would be bland and boring, and noone would play. just the way of the world i guess.

[Narru]

The best fail-safe method for you to determine which sub is better is to have both. Level up your warrior and ninja jobs to the appropriate level, and then switch between the two and see which one you like better.

Just like PhoR said, there's no "best" for every single situtation. Everyone does different things to get to those higher levels. So something that might be a strength in your book might not necessarily be one in another THF's book. Take for example, your example. As a THF I try not to be puller, so that when the puller does return, I'll have already activated SA+TA and the timer is about 10 seconds from refreshing....perform Fuidama and then have another SA+TA immediately available right then and there. But that's if you got competent people in your PT setting up fuidama quickly.

Again, some will like /nin, some will like /war. It's different for everyone.

[guyincorporated]

Indeed. Its all about your personal play-style, too. I try to never, ever get hit, so ditching provoke for utsusemi seemed like a pretty easy choice. But doing that means I had to give up on berzerk and double hit. A pity. But hey, at least I got dual-wield 2 when I hit 50.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Narru
The best fail-safe method for you to determine which sub is better is to have both. Level up your warrior and ninja jobs to the appropriate level, and then switch between the two and see which one you like better.

Just like PhoR said, there's no "best" for every single situtation. Everyone does different things to get to those higher levels. So something that might be a strength in your book might not necessarily be one in another THF's book. Take for example, your example. As a THF I try not to be puller, so that when the puller does return, I'll have already activated SA+TA and the timer is about 10 seconds from refreshing....perform Fuidama and then have another SA+TA immediately available right then and there. But that's if you got competent people in your PT setting up fuidama quickly.

Again, some will like /nin, some will like /war. It's different for everyone.

From my experience once you reach the higher levels people will want you to pull, it's a part of your job. A major advantage of this imo is that you can time your fuidama a lot better, and I think it's best for the party when the thief pulls.

[Starcrossed]

Thief-Pully

Once I resigned myself that for whatever reason people think thieves make the best pullers, I got really used to it, and realized something important:

Pulling is a HUGE responsibility, as important as being the main tank or main healer. The difference is many jobs can pull, but not all players know how to pull properly.

When you're pulling for the party, you are the one setting the pace of the experience your party will earn. Pulling the right mobs at the right time (sometimes group is fairly low but you can take a Tough to finish up the exp chain) is crucial to the party.

One reason why thieves are favoured at pullers is also from the thieves perspective. When you are the puller, you can time your own sneak/trick timers to maximize their availability during the actual battle. I activate sneak/trick while pulling so that when I arrive back the party, I can fuidama onto the main tank, and then a few second later once the main tank has created additional hate, do a normal sneak/trick onto the secondary tank so the mob won't turn. In the first 30 seconds of the battle, the thief will deal with between 1/4 and 1/2 of the mobs hp, assuming they have taken the time to get equipped properly.

If you're going to be a puller, ninja is most definitely the favoured subjob. You get stealth and tonko invisible if needed, and you get blink which can ensure you make it back to the party without a scratch. If you make a bad pull or get a link, thieves are best equipped to deal with it by using their many abilities:

2-hour perfect dodge + instant warp scroll
Flee
Hide

Sometimes none of those things will help because you made a mistake. Always do the graceful thing and die out in the field without bringing the bad pull onto the party. It's a minor inconvenience when one person dies, but its a major setback when the whole party dies, or has to use escape. You ALL lose time and experience by making a bad pull and keeping it.

I realize now that being an excellent puller is what makes excellent parties, as important and minimizing downtime and all the rest.

Do your duty!

[guyincorporated]

And for purely selfish reasons, you can pull mobs with good stuff to steal every 5 mins =)

[Typhus]

Phor, good call on the pokemon reference.

Here's a new question for this topic. Does Dual wielding actually make you score more hits? I saw someone mention dual wield 2, does that exist or did I take it out of context? See I'm thinking that if all dual wield is good for is doubling up on stat boosting weapons, I think I'll be okay with just subbing war. I like provoke, it's good times.

[Tythera]

Dual wield II (NIN 25) also cuts down on the delay of the weapons, by an amount I can't seem to remember right now. I think someone in another post said for every 10 swings, you'll average one more than WAR subbed (estimate). I have both leveled and I switch back and forth depending on where we're going. I've been in Valley of Sorrows lately and those Raptors are indeed quick, so I've been using NIN.

[Novac]

Pulling with Utsu?

What for? All the whm/rdm has to do is cast regen II on you. Twice in the whole fight and it cost little mp for them.

Besides, how else would you get evasion up? Us thieves do have the best evasion cap of ALL classes.