Darks are really better then Thfs?

[Tetsunosuke]

doesn't the fact taht thfs get dancing edge at 60 make up for the lack of power compared to a dark? i PTed with a few darsk (30-36) and i looks like Thfs do more damage if timed rite...my thf does like 300-400 with sneak and trick + viper and about 200-300 with sneak and viper. most darks i see do like 50-60 reg atks and 90-110 with souleat and last resort...even with sneak added to that, it was less then 200

[Anya]

They're really not very comparable, and don't overlap at all until 60+ (65, really). A Drk subbing thf before 60 isn't a very good dark, he cripples his overall damage for a few parlor tricks.

Generally speaking, before 60, thf is a bad sub for anything but farming. The only job that can really get away with it is a war that is doing break WS and needs a 100% hit rate for WS.

Thf does poor sustained damage, but excellent WS burst damage with fuidama. The main use of thf is to focus their fuidama and WS hate onto the tank, allowing the other damage dealers to increase their overall damage without draining healer mp. This yields higher xp gain.

If a drk or other damage class pushes their overall damage too high without a thf in the PT to center the hate, many times they will steal hate from the tank and cost too much healer mp. This will reduce overall xp gained.

At 60+ when other jobs, such as drk, can sub thf and center their WS hate on the tank, they can suppliment a thf in the PT. A Thf is still a better solution as it does not cause the drk or other damage dealer to reduce their overall damage output by subbing thf.

As a better illustration of the differances between thf and drk at your level range, I have recently completed a number (20 or so) BCNM40: Giddeus events, half as Thf, half as Drk.

My BCNM40 PT generally looked like this:
Pld/War, Blm/Whm, Rdm/Whm, Brd/Whm, Smn/Whm, XXX/War.

I was the XXX/War with both Drk/War, and Thf/War. I have about the best equips I can at 40 (Hairpin, 2x Sniper, etc), short of leaping boots because I hate them, and would rather boost my STR with RSE.

If you are unfamiliar with BCNM40:Giddeus, the event consists of one NM mandro that does Flood, AE Paralyze, AE Blind, in addition to the normal mandro ablities. There are also 7(?) other normal mandros.

Our general plan was to kill the NM, then kill the other 7 after.

With Thf/War, it took a very long time to kill the NM, due to the fact that even with berserk, Thf has terrible sustained damage. I could not do fuidama as there was no addition melee, and squeenix killed yokodama. With Sneak+Ws and a seperate trick (which misses often, though swapping to 2 snipers helps) it took a very long time to kill the NM.

After the NM was dead, the Pld would swap to spear and we would perform double thrust->fuidama onto the pld+viper bite on each of the lesser mandros, now that they were pretty firmly fixed on the brd. As the brd had been doing AE sleep for 7+ minutes at this point, the brd's hate was pretty heavy.

The fuidama+ws onto the PLD would average 800-950 damage with distortion effect factored in. Add in the blm's MB and the mandro was now around 50% life, and was on the PLD like white on rice. Hate was instantly taken away from the Brd and the burst damage made for a very fast mop up of remaining mandros.

With Drk/Thf and that same PT formation, the results were a bit different. With the very high damage output of Drk, the NM died fairly quickly, at least half the time it to to kill as thf, if not less. Due to how nasty the NM is, however, I would stack quite a bit of damage and after perhaps 30%-40% of the NM's life, I would have stolen hate from the Pld. It is very, very difficult for a Pld to take hate from a Drk that is dumping as much damage as they can. I would usually have hate until the NM was close to dead. This 'wasted' quite a bit of healer MP, but having the NM dead that much faster seemed worth it to me.

After the NM was dead, we turned to the other mandros. This was a far cry from the ease of finishing them off with thf. With no fuidama to take hate from Brd, the brd ended up having to tank each one until they were perhaps 30-40% dead. This also wasted quite a bit of MP. The loss of the heavy burst damage also caused each kill to be extended.

Overall, the Drk/War team would finish the event 3-4 minutes faster than the Thf/War team. However, far more healer mp was spent due to poor ability to maintain hate. It was also much more risky for the other players when there was no thf to lock hate on the Pld.

I'm not sure if this is the sort of information you were looking for, but I hope it help.

In the end, I would say that if you wanted to kill something fast, bring a Drk. If you wanted to kill something safely and effeciently, bring a Thf.

Or better yet, bring both and take advantage of the combination to succeed at your endevours.

Pardon the many spelling and grammar errors, but it's 4am and I've been doing the damn BC all day.

[LockeCole]

After level 60, my LS mates were partying with a good level 60+ drk. I as a thief was thoroughly convinced that drks can more or less replace thieves at higher levels .

Basically fighting Toramas, My Dancing edge (with bard) dealt from 500-700 damage at level 62, usually around mid to high 500s. But my normal hits were shit, around 10-20 damage max per hand, sometimes less than 10. The drk on the other party went behind the paladin, trick/guilitone for between 200-500 damage the runs behind the monster and sneaks for 170-180 damage. He then proceeds to bash the monster for 80-100 damage on average. In total the Dark Knight out damaged me by far, and there was hardly any hate issues in their party (well sometimes they had a weak guillotine followed by a strong Raging Fists, nothing the paladin can't take care of with simple abilities). Their party setup was pld/drk/mnk/brd/rdm/rdm, and they were getting upwards of 5k/hr. My party had pld/sam/thf/blm/smn/brd, which isn't bad our renkei did perhaps 1.3k and magic burst another 800 damage with Stonega III. We were doing around 4k/hour.

Also the Dark Knight had better pulling abilities than me~! Using stun, he could grab the enemy fast, have time to run back and flee when needed. He could get the pulls ahead of me because stun has a super short cast time compared to my boomerang . Sure I could Hide if Toramas were sight based enemies and I happened to pull a link/pop, but you don't pull links that often since there aren't that many Toramas to link with 2 fast parties over there and they're sound based.

Also, Dancing edge returns on average 20-25 tp, usually 25 with a bard and sometimes 35 if triple attack turns on. But with the 1 minute trick timer I have a strong weapon skill only usable once a minute. The Dark Knight gets, maybe 30-40+ tp with guilitone depending on hits ? Not sure never asked. But after the initial Guilitone tricked, he can afford another guilitone before his trick attack is ready and use it as a finishing while I have to save my trick/sneak so I don't stunt pulls (if your party has to wait even 15-20 seconds for your trick to charge before putting hate on the paladin, bad bad things happen).

While thief can make good parties, it's hard to put them in the greatest parties. It's good that we renkei well with rangers, but nothing stops a gun ranger dealing ~1.5-2k with Slugshot followed by Barrage. Hmmm this paragraph served no purpose LOL. Anyway don't give up being a thief~ There's a level 75 NA thief on my server and it definately looks like fun~!

[DarkomeN]

I myself havent gotten to the part where i get Guillotine yet. Im only level 37. I do however have a friend who is 61. From what i hear, Trick + Sneak + Souleater + Guillotine can lead to some massive damage and hate sealed unto the tank.

While thieves' fuidama is much stronger than the subbed version, and with dancing edge too that is something the drk's fuidama version of guillo can EASILY outdamage IMO. Guillotine is a MONSTER. Also, thieves just dont fare so well in 1 on 1 combat, meaning that excluding their fuidama and sneak attacks they hit for shit.

As a 36 drk i DO have /thf sub. And its not bad if i say so myself ive done around 200 damage with sneak attack + Slice alone, no buffs like Souleater or Last Resort. I do realise that thieves do about 300-400 with viper bite at this level, but other than that? Nothing.

DRKs also get spells. I know it might not sound great but it is. Skillchaining AND performing a magic burst is great. The absorbs own, and drain/aspir are lifesavers.

A 61 DRK friend of mine did around 700 dmg with no sneak attack or trick attack at hand. Only souleater i believe he said(with guillo of course) and he hoped for breaking the 4 digits with those.

[SlipA]

Fui dancing edge can consistently best guillotine. If i a thief main could use guillotine, that would be really impressive dmg

[Anya]

Originally posted by DarkomeN
As a 36 drk i DO have /thf sub. And its not bad if i say so myself ive done around 200 damage with sneak attack + Slice alone, no buffs like Souleater or Last Resort.

You should sub war. Keeping berserk up will do far, far more damage.

[Tetsunosuke]

what i dont understand is that sneak atk seems to blow with other classes...only seems to be like 2x dam while thf is more in the 5x-10x, so would that mean dancing edge sucks that much? this is just nub thinking(only lvl 36 thf) but with viper adding sooo much compared to reg sneak+trick(and only being 2 hits), i would think that dancing edge(5 hits) would be like O.O
am i wrong? is my hopes of dancing edge to high?

[Bamce Sylph]

a subbed sneak, is a max damage crit, where as main theif is the crit damage and a multiplier,

[Izual]

Originally posted by Tetsunosuke
what i dont understand is that sneak atk seems to blow with other classes...only seems to be like 2x dam while thf is more in the 5x-10x, so would that mean dancing edge sucks that much? this is just nub thinking(only lvl 36 thf) but with viper adding sooo much compared to reg sneak+trick(and only being 2 hits), i would think that dancing edge(5 hits) would be like O.O
am i wrong? is my hopes of dancing edge to high?

Not really, fuidama dancing edge is pretty strong (600-1000 average on IT's in my experience).

At low and mid levels, thf's skillchain damage is pretty much un-matched. Levels 30-60, thf makes partying a lot easier because of high skillchain damage and excellent hate control.

Even at 60 they're still secure in this role, fuidama dancing edge is a good deal stronger than a single guillotine/pentathrust/etc. on average.

The change comes at 65/66 on. At this point most classes get their 225 weaponskills, and level 3 skillchains become possible. The only ws thf has to do level 3 skillchain at this point is shark bite, which can make a light skillchain if preceded by fusion. The problem for thf is that drk/thf can do the same thing with spin slash, and drk does it better. Fuidama spin slash is as strong or stronger than shark bite, and drk still does a lot more damage on regular hits than thf. Drk also gets cross reaper, so we can make level 3 dark skillchains as well. Thf doesn't have a 2nd A weapon, so they really can't make dark skillchains. Thf is still useful, they still get party invites, but honestly drk/thf pretty much takes over their job after 66.

By the way, almost all parties after 65/66 rely on level 3 skillchains. You just can't beat 1k ws damage + 1200-1500 skillchain damage every minute or so.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Tetsunosuke
this is just nub thinking(only lvl 36 thf) but with viper adding sooo much compared to reg sneak+trick(and only being 2 hits), i would think that dancing edge(5 hits) would be like O.O
am i wrong? is my hopes of dancing edge to high?

Actually, VB is only one hit (double damage), and that's what makes it so good.

Multihit WS like DE can vary a lot in their damage output, depending on how many hits connect. VB is only one hit, and when used with SA+TA, that hit is guaranteed. This makes VB much more consistent in damage output.

[Ljarin]

I pt often with a drg and nin and we have no problem using wheeling thrust > shark bite for a light skillchain or skewer > dancing edge > blade: ten for a dark skillchain...so that's not always an issue.

Just because thief by themselves can't end a dark skillchain doesn't mean a drk is automatically 'better' because they can end either chain.

[Bishop]

There is no "better" job. This is the way I set up my pt.

I first split my priorities. I'll need a backparty first. My ideal backparty would be rdm, brd, blm. Blm should also act as secondary healer if neccissary.

At high lvls, I really don't see that much of a use for whm other than teleport spells (no offense). My reasoning is that blm has all the cure spells that a whm has, except 1 teir lower. Many may argue that a whm has many other beneficial spells as well such as haste, but those aren't as crucial as something like cure 3. So a whm at lvl 50 may have cure 4, but a blm has cure 3. A pt should rarely have to ever use a cure 4 constantly. Maybe in a critical emergency, it would have to be used, otherwise, it is useless, too much hate. Whms can not nuke, their low lvl blm spells can dent the enemy, but not for enough. So in the end, a blm can nuke VERY well, and can cure well too. In case of a critical emergency, both brd and the rdm can also bust out cure spells to heal, thus distributing the hate evenly and reducing the chances of having a mage take aggro. In the long run, blm > whm.

Ok now for melee. One dmg dealer (main), one tank, one secondary tank or secondary dmg dealer (depending on tank choice, either pld or nin).

If the main dmg dealer was a rng, pld is almost a must. A ninja cannot control hate from barrage or any of that even with a thf in pt. A pld's cover, sentinal, etc will keep hate much more effectively than a nin could. If I have a rng in pt, I'll get a pld, and maybe opt for a secondary dmg dealer or even a thf, but the thrid melee slot is left open for choices.

If my dmg dealers were something like drgs or drks, which produce significantly less hate than a pld, then I would prefer a nin over a pld because ninja's blink is just superior. I mean seriously, would you prefer a tank that takes no dmg, or a tank that takes little dmg. It's just common sense. But in order for the nin to keep hate, there must be a hate control, and thats where thf comes in. To me, a thf and nin almost goes hand in hand.

So basically, it comes down to this, my idea of superior backparty (rdm, brd, blm) and the three melees. If the main tank is a nin, then I would say a thf is a must. If the main tank is a pld, then I could go for either drk or nin. It all depends on the situation, none is better than the other.

[fuz]

Well in reference to this topic, I think it is refering to the post lvl 65/66 game where drk is no longer used as just another melee damage dealer, but instead replaces thf's spot with thf sub. In that regard, yes, drk is better. There are many reasons why drk with thf sub is more desireable--but basically put, drk holds hate just as well and does a lot more damage in regular attacks. Some nifty spells help too.

Thf is otherwise still better at 30-64 for hate control, but never really outdamage a drk by much, if at all by midgame.

[Rones]

In the long run, blm > whm.

*sigh* Why do people always bring up this stuff. What you left out are things such as Regen II (12 hp per 3 sec for tiny hate and high mp efficiency), AF geared toward keeping the healer low on the hate list (-enmity), Raise II (admit it, people do die regardless of how good you are, you want 25% or 75% of your exp back?), reraise by the off chance your only raiser dies, stona, viruna, cursena, erase (let you fight mobs that give nasty status effects without worry), cure IV is needed (some mobs as you well know can do ws that knock the tank from white to orange, does your tank want you to take the chance of that not happening again while you Cure III or hurry up and get him back in the safe range with a Cure IV), a little higher lvl is the insanely powerful cure V and its low hate, and finally the fact that many blm and rdm dislike be assigned the task of mainhealer. So why not try this? blm = whm = rdm

[Tetsunosuke]

nicely done Rones^^