Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

[Eiyoko]

Hello, sorry for the rant. But I need to get this out sooner or later.

Whenever I have a party, things tend to go like this:

Me: Who should I summon?
Party Member: diab
Me: I don't have Diabolos....
*Five minutes later*
Me: Who would you like me to MB with?
Party Member: can u smn diab
Me: I don't have Diabolos, I told you that....
*less than five minutes later*
Party Member: can u plz summon diab!
Me: ...I...don't...have...Diabolos....

Thankfully it doesn't often repeat more than that.

I'm tired of people making assumptions about summoners having every single avatar from day one. I tend to lose invites because of it; it's just stupid. Getting the avatars is really recommended, but it's not like Fenrir and Diabolos are mandatory or anything...; ;

Before I had Fenrir I had to use other blood pacts to make my way. To be honest, when I use Fenrir now that I have him he tends to slow down th party when the moon is low, but it's slower either way for me. I miss being able to summon a variety of avatars for buffs...Hastega...Party Enthunder...Party Stoneskin (as long as they're not having me spam it)...even Ice Spikes when we have a Paladin tanking is alot of fun. But no, the only thing my parties ever want is Fenrir. Sometimes I have to explain that the current moonphase won't give them much of an accuracy bonus but they insist.

Though in my opinion Fenrir is really useful during the New Moon with Lunar Cry (whichever one lowers the enemy's accuracy and evasion, I keep getting them mixed up but I'll get it right sometime! :3)...if you can get that to land who needs an accuracy bonus?

Maybe the melee guy over there who doesn't have much accuracy in the first place...but that's besides the point. O.o

[Galaxia]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Hiya,
I don't know the big hype about Diab partys I get in much preer Fenrir, I am still doing missions for Diab but after talking to alot of Summoners they regret wasteing the time getting him.....
I reccomend getting all avatars but it's not demnaded or needed.

[Mhurron]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

If you don't have all the avatars, don't ask the open question "What should I summon." Without qualifying the question it sounds like you have all your avatars. Besides, you're the summoner, shouldn't you know what to summon?

Oh, and ya, getting your avatars really is 'mandatory or anything.' Summoners have to be able to, I don't know, summon stuff.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I think Mhurron is right, you do ask your PTs what to summon. Its kinda like a leader forming a PT then asking everyone where they should EXP... you mean you don't know? You invited me to play 20 Questions?

I've never been in a PT that asked a SMN to summon a particular avatar above all others, I don't think there's really a hard preference. No one's going to say no to Aerial Armor or Earthen Ward, at least, I can't think of a good reason why they wouldn't want it unless all were subbing /NIN, even then Earthen Ward would be nice.

As far as Fenrir goes, he and the other avatars with good physical attacks are preferred for mobs like colibri. I saw a colibri swallow a Diamond Dust without flinching, so no dice there. Thank god they can't reflect avatar two hours.

And that's somewhat of a problem everywhere in the game. People have become so used to fighting weak mobs at 50+ that now all they want is big melee/physical damage numbers than magic damage. Since SMN and BLU are the mages that can get around reflect with physical magic, they haven't suffered against the new FFXI Crab, the Colibri.

And I'd let people slide for not having Diabolos. Fenrir, on the other hand, isn't impossible to obtain if you have a job at 60+. Just requires getting the six whispers again and the bauble afterward. There are other jobs that actively want some of the avatar gear and it can't hurt to ask friends or members of your LS to persue these runs.

[Sabaron]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Call me crazy....but I think I've seen this exact same thread in a previous incarnation.

Was it here?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...litists-5.html

[Eohmer]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Call me crazy....but I think I've seen this exact same thread in a previous incarnation.

Was it here?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...litists-5.html

I knew I wasn't going crazy... :D

[Vyuru]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Yeah, but when you're a summoner for life I'm sure you deal with these nitwits alot of times.

[Sabaron]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Diabolos is hard to get. Diabolos basically requires you to have another 75 job. Personally, I'm not levelling summoner until I have Diabolos, Fenrir, an Evoker's Ring and Carby Mitts. I suppose, though, if you giddy for SMN, then go for it without, but you can't complain too much when people want something good and you don't have it.

SMN without Diabolos is gimp. He's not a piece of gear, he's a spell and an incredibly useful one at that. Not everyone has him, and it really doesn't bother me, but it would bother me if I was a SMN which is why I stopped levelling SMN when I was set up for Promyvion. Fenrir is just fine in most instances, but all of Diabolos's abilities are good. I believe Camisado has a Knockback effect iirc which can be used to interrupt spellcasting if that works on monsters...I'm not sure as I don't actually have Diabolos and thus have never tried to use it for this purpose. Perhaps a Diabolos-wielding summoner can expound.

[Gobo]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Diabolos is hard to get. Diabolos basically requires you to have another 75 job. Personally, I'm not levelling summoner until I have Diabolos, Fenrir, an Evoker's Ring and Carby Mitts. I suppose, though, if you giddy for SMN, then go for it without, but you can't complain too much when people want something good and you don't have it.
SMN without Diabolos is gimp. He's not a piece of gear, he's a spell and an incredibly useful one at that. Not everyone has him, and it really doesn't bother me, but it would bother me if I was a SMN which is why I stopped levelling SMN when I was set up for Promyvion. Fenrir is just fine in most instances, but all of Diabolos's abilities are good. I believe Camisado has a Knockback effect iirc which can be used to interrupt spellcasting if that works on monsters...I'm not sure as I don't actually have Diabolos and thus have never tried to use it for this purpose. Perhaps a Diabolos-wielding summoner can expound.

I'm going to have to completely disagree with that. A SMN without Diabolos is hardly gimp at all. Diabolos is, imo, the most useless of all the avatars released. His perpetuation is the same as the Celestial Avatars. Until the 2nd merit category update and the SMN skill update, he was pretty good. But after those 2 updates, he's become a trophy more or less.

Camisado: no knockback for players and Carby/Fenrir can do the same damage with less perpet.

Somnolence: Ok damage for cost and ok Gravity, and its a Ward oddly enough. Nothing stellar.

Nightmare: Before the skill update, best SMN sleep. After the update, Shiva>Diabolos (it lasts longer)

Ultimate Terror: Its gimmicky and a waste of MP.

Noctoshield: Pre-Phalanx II, it was a godsend. Post Phalanx II its a piece of crap.

Dream Shroud: Maybe the best ability, though not great. Its a small boost to both, though nothing to write home about. I wouldn't rely on it for tanking JoL or Bahamut

Nether Blast: Its good consistent damage, but since the Merit BPs and the skill update, I haven't used it that much. If the mob is physically resistant, I'm more prone to use Geocrush now for ~650 damage and stun. (All merit BPs have the same range as Nether Blast and have pretty good magic acc with +skill). Others may be different, its just my play style.

So really, Diabolos is hardly the avatar he was when he was released at the end of CoP. Unlike Fenrir, who has more practical uses in both Soloing, PTs and even partly endgame, Diabolos's uses have been replaced by other and pretty much better things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

The design of SMN itself is quirky and conflicts with the player base's elitest opinion that you should have them all before you take the job up. That certainly was not the case for Rydia, Garnet, Eiko or Yuna.

SMN has always had to go on a pilgrimage of sorts and challenge the summons in combat to prove their worth. But FFXI originally rigged it in hopes you had taken another job to high level first. That's fine for the people that played it from 2002, but hell on anyone who started after FFXI and Zilart. Fenrir wasn't even available until shortly after the 2004 PS2 launch. Diabolos wasn't until mid-2005 and it was long after his original mission was unvieled.

SE has tried to fix it has best they could with the original avatars, but its hard to do it with any that have followed because its somewhat of a slight to other players to dumb down each and every avatar battle when they did the harder ones.

[Sabaron]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I'm going to have to completely disagree with that. A SMN without Diabolos is hardly gimp at all. Diabolos is, imo, the most useless of all the avatars released. His perpetuation is the same as the Celestial Avatars. Until the 2nd merit category update and the SMN skill update, he was pretty good. But after those 2 updates, he's become a trophy more or less.

Camisado: no knockback for players and Carby/Fenrir can do the same damage with less perpet.

Somnolence: Ok damage for cost and ok Gravity, and its a Ward oddly enough. Nothing stellar.

Nightmare: Before the skill update, best SMN sleep. After the update, Shiva>Diabolos (it lasts longer)

Ultimate Terror: Its gimmicky and a waste of MP.

Noctoshield: Pre-Phalanx II, it was a godsend. Post Phalanx II its a piece of crap.

Dream Shroud: Maybe the best ability, though not great. Its a small boost to both, though nothing to write home about. I wouldn't rely on it for tanking JoL or Bahamut

Nether Blast: Its good consistent damage, but since the Merit BPs and the skill update, I haven't used it that much. If the mob is physically resistant, I'm more prone to use Geocrush now for ~650 damage and stun. (All merit BPs have the same range as Nether Blast and have pretty good magic acc with +skill). Others may be different, its just my play style.

So really, Diabolos is hardly the avatar he was when he was released at the end of CoP. Unlike Fenrir, who has more practical uses in both Soloing, PTs and even partly endgame, Diabolos's uses have been replaced by other and pretty much better things.

I'll have to amend my thinking then:

If Camisado has no knockback, then it's practically useless.

If Somnolence is a Ward pact, that makes it valuable since it costs only 6 more mp (plus perpetuation) than Gravity, has the same effect, and does damage as well.

Nightmare: Can a Sleep spell that does damage really be that bad? What does over-cap Summoning skill do to this spell?

Ultimate Terror: meh, I suppose I shouldn'tve said all of his abilities are good. Not worth a 60-second downtime on your Rage pact, but at least it's cheap.

Noctoshield: RDM doesn't get Phalanx II until 75th level plus merits. Not all Red Mages have it and it's not area of effect. This one is still very good. For the price of just over two Phalanx II's you can have 6 (more likely 3-4 depending on party setup). What is the damage resistance benefit on this, btw?

Dream Shroud: Kind of expensive, but good for mage-heavy DD parties. Do you know the relative effect?

Nether Blast: Pre-75 this is your only ranged Blood Pact. It has value for XP PT. It deals Darkness damage (a rare thing), and it costs 73 MP less than a merit Blood Pact. I'm sure Merit BPs are more efficient at dealing
damage. What are the effects of +Skill on this?

Like I said, I consider it gimp to be down an ability. That point still stands regardless of the relative usability of the avatar at 75th level. I wouldn't level SMN without him, but I don't complain if a SMN doesn't have him. He is by no means necessary. Fenrir, I get a little upset, but I generally don't mention it as, depending on moon phase, he's more or less useful except in attack modes.

[Gobo]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

I'll have to amend my thinking then:
If Camisado has no knockback, then it's practically useless.
If Somnolence is a Ward pact, that makes it valuable since it costs only 6 more mp (plus perpetuation) than Gravity, has the same effect, and does damage as well.
Nightmare: Can a Sleep spell that does damage really be that bad? What does over-cap Summoning skill do to this spell?
Ultimate Terror: meh, I suppose I shouldn'tve said all of his abilities are good. Not worth a 60-second downtime on your Rage pact, but at least it's cheap.
Noctoshield: RDM doesn't get Phalanx II until 75th level plus merits. Not all Red Mages have it and it's not area of effect. This one is still very good. For the price of just over two Phalanx II's you can have 6 (more likely 3-4 depending on party setup). What is the damage resistance benefit on this, btw?
Dream Shroud: Kind of expensive, but good for mage-heavy DD parties. Do you know the relative effect?
Nether Blast: Pre-75 this is your only ranged Blood Pact. It has value for XP PT. It deals Darkness damage (a rare thing), and it costs 73 MP less than a merit Blood Pact. I'm sure Merit BPs are more efficient at dealing
damage. What are the effects of +Skill on this?
Like I said, I consider it gimp to be down an ability. That point still stands regardless of the relative usability of the avatar at 75th level. I wouldn't level SMN without him, but I don't complain if a SMN doesn't have him. He is by no means necessary. Fenrir, I get a little upset, but I generally don't mention it as, depending on moon phase, he's more or less useful except in attack modes.

Nightmare: Over skill cap makes the sleep more accurate. Shiva still wins out due to longer duration. The slip from players Nightmare is really low, very gimped vs what Diabolos uses in BCs. I was screwing around with friends and helping with Memento Mori and used Nightmare to sleep them (pre-skill update), it was like Bio I type slip.

Nether Blast: Over skill does nothing. At 65 it does 480ish damage, at 75 its 508. Meteorite and Eclipse Bite do more damage than it. Its only benefit was that is was nearly unresistable (not a word, oh well) and had good range, but the high acc of the Merit BPs now over shadows this at 75.

Somnolence's Gravity is not something to rely on at all. It lasts for 0 sec (vs a VT+ Earth mob). If you are gonna use it to run, might as well throw Carby at the mob and book it.

Noctoshield is a flat 13 damage. Phalanx II is 21 fully merited (with +Enhancing Gear to hit cap). For PTs with PLDs its good, but for other jobs, Earthen Ward is better for its flat 200 damage absorption+15 min duration. Endgame though, most LSs will have a RDM with Phalanx II merited, and they will rarely have to cast on more than 2-3 people.

Dream Shroud: Hmm, I want to say it fluctuates between 5-10% for both, depending on the time of day (the whole dream thing), but I can't be concrete. I've seen a +10% boost with Nether Blast, but BLMs have shown <5% from DS. So many things are killed with Melee now a days (see all of ToAU and much of RoZ) that its not as needed anymore. And for things where tanks are in +MBD and +resist gear, SMNs are almost always DDs and using lvl70 BPs.

[Grandsummoner_Kairos]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

For Diabolos all i have to say is he's at the bottom of my list as far as avatars used goes. only thing i use less than him is the dark spirit.

I have 333 smn skill and i can sleep things with nightmare that redmages and blm's have a hard time sleeping, but that's more because of my smn skill, not because nightmare is so accurate.

I like ultimate terror because i use it in dynamis to weaken large crowds for quick killing.

Somnolence is a very accurate gravity effect as it is, not to mention skill above cap, but the best thing about this pact is that it can be used with a rage because its a ward.

By the time fenrir was released i was already a 72 smn so knowing how I leveled smn at that time, the only necessary avatars all the way up are the 6 celestial ones and spirits if you know how to use them. Fenrir was nice when he came along but he hardly makes or breaks the job. Diabolos is a useful tool to have but if he was gone tomorrow i wouldn't miss him much. They didn't make lower level terrestrial avatar battles for a reason i think, they don't consider those two that were added as a basic tool needed for the job to function. You have to know how to use multiple avatar effects. I think personally that dream shroud is pointless to use defensively unless its stacked with shell and shining ruby.

[Sabaron]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

So Diabolos is basically "meh" then? That's disappointing. I want to see if they release a new avatar for ToAU, but that's a whole new can of worms. You seriously use, say, Water Spirit more often than Diabolos?

[Canitoch]

Re: Enough of the Assumptions! T.T

Like I said, I consider it gimp to be down an ability. That point still stands regardless of the relative usability of the avatar at 75th level.He is by no means necessary.

If he isn't necessary, then you really wouldn't be gimped if you didn't have him right?

I never got diabolos, I retired at 71 smn..I tried though. I don't care if summoners don't have him, I think you should try at least to get him. But I don't think people are gimped if they don't have Diabolos.

I'm just confused that you say, you are gimped without Diabolos, but he isn't nesecsary at all, you're just gimped, even if he isn't very useful.