Summoner power - before endgame

[Kardor]

Re: Summoner power - before endgame

Yea but one advice on the Mini Fork Battles - Be Patient and Calm.
I dont want to demoralize you but u gotta be warned thoose fights were the most frustrating painful experience in my whole smn life. be ready to loose a few times till you get the flow on theese and farm stuff like Beehive chips or Silk (or whatever in low lvl farming is good on Hades) so you dont run out on cash.
Also even 90% of all guides say its easier with a plain 3x Searing Light on the Avatars this tactic didnt work at all with me^^. Try to find your own way there - Carby melee + 2x Searing light takes longer and a few more Meds/drinks but its not bad at all.^^

And at lvl 25 you will learn Aerial armor - Blinkga sure BS in the Jungle for mandys dual attk but it will come in handy^^.

[Kitalrez]

Re: Summoner power - before endgame

To get back to your original point there are certain things that make SMN fun and interesting. You just have to be playing with a group of friends open enough to let you learn how to do most of them.

For one thing, we were originally designed as one of the 5 pulling jobs. S-E basically created this game around a model where you had tankers, DDs, Support jobs, and pullers. We were sort of a job that could slip between some of the other roles if we had to. The most glaring relic of our long-lost original purpose was pointed out by Lhun and Jopasopa of Killing Ifrit's Summoner boards: the Friend-or-Foe radar which only BST, THF, RNG, NIN and SMN get. Look on the little compass at the bottom L of your screen... now go stand next to a monster. Notice the red dot? Try standing next to various NPCs now. Granted, that's about as useful as a screendoor on a submarine when you want to actually find a target to pull, but it does clue you in somewhat to our intended purpose.

To use this aspect of our job, you want to get really familiar with the macros for /assault, /retreat, and /release. Build a pallette around pulling and you'll gradually get better at using these effectively. Each of the pulling job excelled at a particular type of pulling. RNG and BST could use Widescan to pick up targets, which both could then shoot or throw at, with BST being able to charm any beasts that linked and RNG being able to hopefully spot them and avoid them first. NIN had shadows to absorb any hits on the way back, an A- skill rating in throwing to use the appropriate dart/shuriken to make the pull, and the built-in Stealth trait/Tonkos to make sure they made it back to camp. THF you probably are familiar with, what with watching them use the Hide skill/ect. What we are masters at is getting rid of links long before they ever reach the party. If a party leader sends out an experienced SMN puller to get a mob, he can be 99.9% sure that the SMN is going to bring one back w/o links. Here's how you do that:

1. Find the target you want and /assault it with carbuncle.

2. As Carb is hitting the target, run til his hp disappears and hit the /retreat macro to call him back, then start running back towards the party. The idea while running is to avoid aggroing anything yourself, but not really worry about whether or not anything links to whatever's chasing carbuncle.

3. As you near the party and have a relatively link free stretch. Stop just long enough to check what's on Carby. If you have nothing linked, keep running in, if you have links, hit the /release macro.

4. Once you get in party, /release Carbuncle and wait for the tank to voke. (Hopefully the tank is not asleep at this point).

Done correctly, only one mob will be in camp, (the mob you initially attacked). We're probably the only job other than BST who can pull this off. Additionally, you have a backup plan in the event carby dies before you reach the party and the mob brings another link that's aggroing you instead of carby: Ramuh. Simply pull him out, /assault him on the original mob , then trigger Thunderspark. This will tick off everything in the area at Ramuh, instead of you. When Ramuh dies, or you get far enough away to /release him and finish your carby kite, you will have only the original mob angry at you.

It's a beautiful thing to watch, although the way most parties play you will probably never get to actually do it. :roll

On another note, we're also pretty solid Support jobs, as Kardor mentioned. We fit the same basic roles as WHMs, RDMs, and BRDs, helping the party to succeed better than they could without us. WHM mainly heals, with a decent set of group buffs, and a small smattering of Debuffs. RDM mainly buffs and debuffs, with a minor role in healing. BRD is mainly buffing with its few debuffs thrown in when needed. We, however, have a pretty unique set of uses. Since we have no MP refresh move, we aren't optimal buffers like RDMs and BRDs, (though all of our moves that we can use affect the entire party, many of which are unique like Earthen Ward and Aerial Armor). We also don't have a real large selection of debuffs. What we can do really well to support the party comes in the way of damage. By having you in a party, that party can essentially create extra skillchains. If any melee there has a powerful move to close a good skillchain, there's always a corresponding Bloodpact that can open it, (the exceptions being the lvl 3 Light and Dark skillchains you see post-65). Also, you can burst of skillchains already in play using your elemental avatars, and we are one of the three jobs who can effectively burst off a Light Skillchain, though PLD and WHM tend to be too busy to pull this off normally.

If you're going to look for pickup parties, however, you'll probably get stuck healing. It's not very fun, but it does guarantee you a shot at exp. What you can do to break the tedium of this is try to get some friends together from time to time and learn how to use the other aspects of our job effectively. The more confident in your skills you get, the easier it becomes to suggest to pickup party leaders that maybe you should be doing this stuff for exp. Beyond that, this is an incredibly fun job to solo with. I started even before Omniblast and the others in this thread, starting with Azers in Eldieme Necropolis at around 42-44ish, and moving on from there to Explosures in Garliage Citadel before Ifrit's Cauldron and beyond. Granted, soloing SMN tend to die a lot at first, and it can be really hard to learn how to effectively use/recast sneak around high-aggro areas like EN and GC, but it's doable. A little 8k stack of bomb ash or 3 from a successful solo run also does wonders to afford those elemental staves you may be still missing after lvl 50.

[aegina]

Re: Summoner power - before endgame

i'm not sure how much you use macro's, but i started to make a macro writing guide awhile back.

here is a possible macro layout for summoners. some of these look a little, erm, advanced XD but once you try them out in-game, they're easy to get the hang of.

SUMMONER MACRO PALLET

first you need macros for summoning your avatars. personally, i use <stnpc>, which puts a blue subtarget icon over the mob's head. that way you can tell it to attack once the summon animation sequence is finished.

CTRL-1:Carbuncle
/ma "Carbuncle" <me>
/wait 1
/ta <bt>
/pet "Assault" <stnpc>
/recast "Blood Pact"
/pet "Poison Nails" <stnpc>(or whichever blood pact you think you will use the most)

i like the <stnpc> way much better you target the mob while summoning, and there is next to zero chance of attacking the link by mistake. this setup can be used with any summon, and it works quite well

CTRL-2:Garuda
CTRL-3 Ifrit
CTRL-4 Shiva
CTRL-5 Titan
CTRL-6 Ramah
CTRL-7 Leviathan
CTRL-8 Diabolos (not diablos. that was ff-8 )
CTRL-9 Fenrir

CTRL-0 Ice Elemental
/ma "Ice Spirit" <me>
/wait 1
/ta <bt>
/pet assault <stnpc>

ice elemental? wtf??? lol i noticed that the casting time for the elementals is very short. it's a good idea to have one elemental macro'd so that, if you get aggro'd when you don't have a pet out, you can summon SOMETHING quickly, and sic it on the mob. once your pet has hate, run for zone. this idea i had has already save my summoner's life a few times, and my summoner is only lvl 19 (edit: was 19 when i wrote this awhile back)

NOW THE ALTS

Alt-1 Dissmis
/recast "Blood Pact"
/pet "Release" <me>
/wait 32
/echo ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Blood Pact Ready!!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


i'm not sure if <t> or <bt> is better with these. <bt> targets/attacks whoever the party is currently targeting. if you have a link tho, sometimes it will attack the link by mistake (which is annoying if you want to keep the link slept). i guess it's up to you which you prefer to use...

ALT-2 Damaging blood pact
/pet "Megolith Throw" <bt>
/pet "Double Punch" <bt>
/pet "Double Slap" <bt>
/pet "Thunderspark" <bt>
/pet "Camisado" <bt>

ALT-3 Damaging blood pact 2
/pet "Meteorite" <bt>
/pet Axe Kick" <bt>
/pet "Double Slap" <bt>
/pet "Tail Whip" <bt>

ALT-4 bust
/pet "Water II" <bt>
/pet "Fire II" <bt>
/pet "Aero II" <bt>
/pet "Stone II" <bt>
/pet "Blizzard II" <bt>

use these for magic bursting

ALT-5 Enfeeble
/pet "Poison Nails" <bt>
/pet "Rock Throw" <bt>
/pet "Shock Strike" <bt>
/pet "Lunar Cry" <bt>
/pet "Solomense" <bt>

ALT-6 buff 1
/pet "Aerial Armor" <me>
/pet "Earthen Ward" <me>
/pet "Crimson Howl" <me>
/pet "Lightning Armor" <me>
/pet "Eliptic Growl" <me>
/pet "Phalanxga" <me>

ALT-7 buff 2
/pet "Shining Ruby" <me>
/pet "Hastega" <me>
/pet "Frost Armor" <me>
/pet "Shock Spikes" <me>
/pet "Eliptic Howl" <me>
/pet "Dream shroud" <me>

ALT-8 cures, sleeps, and slowga
/pet "Healing Ruby" <me>
/pet "Spring Water" <me>
/pet "Sleepga" <bt>
/pet "Slowga" <bt>
/pet "Nightmare" <bt>

ALT-0 mp
/p (summoner) MP = <mp> thats <mpp>

i can't remember what i had under alt-9 right now... i know i had something...
if you don't understand what some of the commands mean (like "<stnpc>" and "/ta <bt>") then just go try em out in-game. they're not hard to figure out once you see them used, and i don't feel like explaining them right now


(man, i need to get around to finishing that macro guide ^^)

[Khidir]

Re: Summoner power - before endgame

One thing aegina when you summon an spirit it may be best to just summon it and let it auto attack that way you have less hate and can possibly avoid the mob chasing you if you run far away enough not sure if you can run off hate in hi tiers but it can be done in low tiers so its probly best if you dont force your pet to attack

[Karinya]

Re: Summoner power - before endgame

When reading posts about SMN, be sure to check the dates. SMN has been changed several times in the last couple years (all or almost all improvements) and it is not at all the job it used to be.

My experience with midlevel SMN is that it can contribute a lot to a party - not just healing and avatar pulling, although those things are useful too. Also, it *can* solo easy prey (and sometimes decent challenge) enemies at any level (that I've seen so far), it's just that the exp from this is significantly slower than even a mediocre party, so hardly anyone bothers. At 38 I can go through Rolanberry Fields beating up beastmen, crawlers, goobbues, malboros - practically everything there has some valuable drops (especially handy if it's your highest level job), a little exp, and Ifrit can take off 1/3 or more of their hp in one double punch. It also happens to be conveniently close to the most popular party destination at that level, Crawlers' Nest.

A lot of the contributions possible for SMN require the rest of the party to be well organized (not just firing off ws or sc at random, for example) and be able to take advantage of the SMN's abilities. This can be very frustrating.

While Aerial Armor hasn't been changed, it is nevertheless much less useful than it used to be because almost everyone with even a tiny chance of being hit subs nin now. AA doesn't stack with the blinks they already have, and it's very expensive to use to hit only one or two people with shadows that may not be used at all, or if they are, will stop only a <100 damage (i.e. one Cure2) hit. (It becomes much better at higher levels as attacks become more damaging and your MP pool becomes bigger.)

SMN's damage ability shouldn't be underestimated, although it does depend on level relative to monsters. Other "healer/support" jobs sometimes get invited when they are 2-3 levels below the rest of the party; although a SMN can still be useful in this situation, their damage and debuffing abilities will seriously suffer.

A few BPs to avoid:
Megalith Throw - is bugged to almost never hit and when it does, very little damage.
Frost Armor, Rolling Thunder - neat ideas, but the effects are very tiny. Worse, the durations are very short (on par with the durations of spells with 10 second or less unshared recasts - or in RT's case, even shorter!), so you can't even cast them during downtime and have a tiny buff when you do get started.
Crimson Roar - admittedly I just got this one, but it seems to be only 10% attack for 30 seconds. The most favorable situation for it would probably be using it right before a skillchain, but I doubt that the extra damage from the skillchain could make up for the fact that you would then be unable to MB. I suppose it might be worthwhile in those situations where you can't land a MB well because you are too low level.
Whispering Wind - very weak and inefficient when you first get it. It supposedly gets better later, though. (Although by then you'd have Spring Water...)
I suspect that Lightning Armor, Glittering Ruby and Ultimate Terror fall into this category too (LA has the same problems as FA and the other two are too random to be reliably useful), but haven't tried them yet.

There are still plenty of good useful BPs to use, though. At 38, I still use Thunderspark pretty often, as well as Tail Whip and Lunar Cry. Aerial Armor occasionally when I have a party that isn't full of /nins, Shining Ruby when I have nothing better to do (at the start of the party or when people are afk) - the effect is pretty small but it lasts a couple minutes, so you might as well. Double Punch is great for soloing, but its effectiveness drops off noticeably on party exp mobs, especially if you are below the party's top level.

Unfortunately most of the BPs in the 30s seem to make the "neat idea, crappy implementation" list, so I haven't really gotten anything new and useful in a while; fortunately there's a lot to look forward to in the 40s, with Ecliptic Growl, Earthen Ward, Spring Water (in addition to healing, it also acts as all -na spells at once, including Stona which is not otherwise available to SMN), Hastega (if it's good) and Noctoshield (if I can beat Diabolos by then).

[SharMarali]

Re: Summoner power - before endgame

I've said it before, and I'm certain I'll say it at least 100 more times before I die or quit FFXI... There are many, many, many PERFECTLY VALID ways to play SMN. There is no one "best" way to play the job.

Personally, I chose to play SMN as primarily a buffing/supporting class job. I felt that I could bring a lot more to the table in a PT by using the abilities I had that NO ONE ELSE has besides SMNs. I threw out a combination of stoneskin, blink (though that was, admittedly, less useful due to NIN main and subs), ecliptical growl/howl, etc, etc, etc. I prefer NOT to use hastega because it doesn't last nearly as long as the WHM spell, but if I found myself in a PT with a WHM or RDM that couldn't grasp the concept of keeping haste on the NIN, I'd usually go for it. I found that I received lot of positive feedback from MOST PTs for this style of play (hey, you can't please all of the people all of the time ).

Why do I speak of all this in the past tense? Well, I really don't PT on my SMN anymore, or if I do, it's usually because one of the zillion or so BLM friends I have needs another body for a MB PT. I found that once I reached 70, the job changed significantly. It was a GOOD change, because it made me a more versatile player, but I felt I began getting PT invites for the wrong reasons. I view myself as a supporter. Not a damage dealer. I've gotten PT invitations where I've been point-blank told "You are not allowed to use any blood pacts other than spinning dive." I'm not about that... lol. Spinning dive has its time and its place, and it's EXTREMELY useful, but I don't think I need to throw all my other BPs in the garbage because I have it.

Yes, I PTed all the way to 75, but I basically quit PTing after that except for, as I mentioned, the occassional MB PT (hey, I know what's expected of me there lol). If I find my exp lower than I like it to be (I LIKE IT CAPPED, DAMMIT!) then I usually solo for awhile either in Al'Taieu or in Toraimarai or wherever else it strikes my fancy to solo that day.

What about merits? Ehh... I have my RDM for that... It gets invites faster anyway ^^

The bottom line is, don't let anyone tell you how to play SMN. Don't let anyone tell you that SMN sucks as a DD before endgame (although it's much weaker in that category). If that's how you want to play the job, play it that way. Don't let anyone tell you that DD'ing is ALL SMN is good for either, though. That's just crazy talk.

When reading posts about SMN, be sure to check the dates. SMN has been changed several times in the last couple years (all or almost all improvements) and it is not at all the job it used to be.

And THIS is a very, very, very good piece of advice for ANYthing you're looking for about FFXI. Keep in mind, this game has been around for three and a half years. I personally have been around to see just slightly over three years of it. The game has grown and changed in ways that many of you wouldn't believe if I began to tell you (for instance, did you know that you used to get kicked out of your PT if you entered the mog house? Or that, at one time, you could only invite members to your PT who were in the same ZONE as you, not just the same region? Or that most red mages did not have refresh because it was considered far too expensive and the steamed sprouts battle was considered far too difficult? Or that, prior to the existance of NIN, WAR/WHM and WAR/MNK were considered viable tanking options clear into the 60's? Or that rank 6 used to be the highest rank available? Or that Genkai 2 used to take TWO entire alliances to complete? Etc...)

As an example, I was a red mage long, long, long before I was a summoner. There are some incredibly old posts of mine hanging out over on the red mage forum. Several months ago, someone revived an old topic of mine that was posted a couple of weeks after the job ability "Convert" was implemented (Yep, that's another thing that wasn't always around lol) asking about the feasibility of using convert without Divine Seal (though I probably referred to it as megami no shirushi, because this was long before we knew what the English translations of JAs were going to be). Seems like kind of a silly question now. But at the time, the forums were FLOODED with questions about converting. Checking the date would have prevented a lot of confusion on the parts of the people who replied to the post.

And once again, I've made a post far longer than I meant to.