Summoner update. It wasn't complete.

[Oceanfish]

I must admit I was very intrigued by the update information from the day it was posted until it was implemented only to login for a short time to find myself being mostly disappointed.

I will start off saying however, SE did a nice job on balancing avatar magic burst ability. Gathering 100-300% TP for a decent burst balances it with BLM so that SMN cannot MB at the same rate or power as a BLM, but at the same time not wastefully. The ability to (finally) burst Astral Flow abilities is also nice to have (FYI, they don't use TP when you use them either).

Furthermore, by allowing Avatar TP to be used for the healing abilities to enhance them beyond their previous power, and increasing the power of Whispering Wind to be more in line with its MP cost VS Ruby2 and Spring Water, I commend them.

The enhancement of Chaotic Strike to be more in line with the other level 70 Blood Pacts was also a nice change, although they still ignored Rush completely. IMO if they want to really balance the moves, they should at least make the 5 hit ability not the weakest when all 5 hits still land. Still a nice change though.

However, when I went with a melee out to test some SCs with the big moves (Eclipse Bite and beyond) we couldn't seem to get the timing correct. The problem turned out to be that the moves cannot SC at all!

This is not good. SE had a perfect opportunity to finally make summoner "complete" in terms of functionality, and yet at the finish line they dropped the baton.

If their plan was for avatars to be a unique part of the party for skillchain or magic burst, why would they revoke this ability at the end? Granted, I realize it would be powerful for an avatar to make a level 3 chain, so even if the chain damage was capped at 300 from when an avatar closes it, it would be enough. These moves should be able to SC since they are what a SMN will use at high levels, and not Poison Nail and Axe Kick.

SE should finish the job they started, and not leave the endgame SMN out of the benefits from the job enhancement.

[anaya]

I'm a little disappointed in the inability to make lv3 renkei's as well, but lv70 BP's are very strong as is, and I've heard some say SMN now needs a nerf (my arse ) but yeah... A tad disappointed but still happy with the improvements made.

[StarRealms]

I know I've been negative a lot before but I must say I am not impressed... most of this seems like a toy then any real improvement. Blood pact timers need to be fixed before this can be decently useful. Only thing it might improve is lvling somewhat for lower lvl smns, but overall I don't think it's any huge improvement.

[Oceanfish]

Well, I levelled up vs some IT monsters today at 75. Even with max skill, AF2 hands, AF1 legs, merit lv2 up summoning magic, predator claws was still hitting inconsistantly. Sure, I could use spinning dive, but the damage is less in comparison to when all 3 hits land from predator.

SMN don't really hit much harder than a melee doing a sata ws, if even they do hit harder. Plus it uses a significant amount of MP.
A melee can stay out and do damage in between sc too, while SMN drains mp at a fairly fast rate. I don't think that giving summoners the ability to make sc with the final moves is that unbalancing. I would say it would put us about where we should be.

[cavill]

Alot of high lvl SMN's are disapointed, would u actuaally prefer it to be back the way it was before?

[Oceanfish]

You're missing the point.
I'm not comparing before and now, I'm saying they changed x by an amount but not y to that same factor thus the update was implemented in a flawed manner; excluding the endgame techniques. It's stupid to exclude them.

So to answer your question: It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me, honestly. They should have just made the changes uniform.

[Kalel]

I agree with Oceanfish. Oceanfish is high level summoner and should know what summoner job is all about. Like Oceanfish said, making weak attacks to decent attacks doesnt do much accept make smns a little more useable to attacking mobs but nothing that stands out.

As for high level BP being too strong, well they have to hit first to do anything. Avatars usually miss 3/5 attacks.

People shouldn't even think about talking about nerfing other jobs because envious of their abilities. There is nothing about SMN that needs to be nerfed, they were nerfed as soon as job was put in game. Because in every FF game before FFXI, smns were the most destructive force in the games. But not in FFXI, they basically cure and attack on rare occasions. So no they don't need anything but improvements.

But no game should ever be nerfed. They should just add better abilities to each other job to balance it out, thats my opinion.

[Deedlit]

I really think Ocean and I play a different game. I'm perfectly satisfied doing 60% of the damage on Fafnir with Spinning Dive, and I smack Kirin around for about 900 per BP. I really don't think these moves need to be updated. I miss maybe, 1/6?

[StarRealms]

lol 60% of the damage on fafnir? I don't believe it...yes spinning dive was nice but blm with brd support can do just as good or better. how do you get usual 900 bps from kirin? I did around 400-600 at lvl 73 with leviathan (more if it critted) but if you usually get around 900 I am seriously missing something...

[Oceanfish]

rofl
60% of the damage on Fafnir? Your melee must be taru drg with mp and defense gear, your blm must be galka with -int and skill gear then.

Anyhow, I was referring more to the party side of the moves anyhow.

[Deedlit]

I think we had one BLM, and he had to hold back because of agro. I didn't have to worry about grabbing hate, another nice advantage of being a SMN. Laugh all you want, but the RDMs that were nuking, we nuking for like, 50, and the melee there we're doing, well, unimpressive dmg. Not terrible, but nothing spectacular - most were just trying to get tp for spirits within. And yes, they are god equipped. I had people sending me tells cause they were shocked by the strength of the BPs.

As for Kirin, I guess you're missing something then. I think I was also doing Spinning Dive for like, 1700 on Seiryu that he summons, but those gods are weak compared to the real thing.

[Oceanfish]

The gods summoned by Kirin aren't really a good example, as they're individually really weak. That was a critical hit, anyhow. It's like a melee double attacking on a ws. The exception, not the rule. I think you should also check your fighter jobs' damage more closely as well. If they're decently equipped they will outdamage you in most situations, and can also contribute to skillchains for a round of bursts.
One BLM? That must have been a really painful kill. It's no wonder why you can attribute such a large % of the damage to yourself (which is probably still, WAY off)

Anyhow, again, those kind of fights are non-related to what I was talking about, anyhow. I'm talking about the main use of a Summoner for a high end non-all summoner party. Yes, people still exp after 70-75. You missed the point completely and reinforced what you said by dragging in something non-sequiter.

[Deedlit]

Alright fine Ocean.

Let's talk golems - the ones you fight to pop Ullikumi. I do nice damage on those as well, though I haven't fought them with the new update, I'd like to try MBing on them. I mean, 800 dmg on just the attack, for an IT to 75 mob - I don't see how that's bad for a lvl 70 attack. Yes, it misses - sometimes, not usually. I see it more as, each avatar has it specialty. Garuda? Toss her up against pots, and she OWNS them. Levi - I like to use against gods, cause it is a single attack instead of multiple, though Ramuh's Chaotic Stike is nice on Genbu.

I really don't see how SE could have made these moves stronger/more practical for the purpose of an exp PT, without overpowering them for stuff like HNMs. I like the dmg I do as it is. BTW, that wasn't a crit on Seiryu, it was normal. It's just that they have crappy defense I suppose - either way, it was more than what others were doing.

[Oceanfish]

800 damage with 1 minute re-use? A lot? Heh.
SATA ws from a DRK, SAM, or a WS from a RNG or MNK will hit harder on those, plus extra SC damage, plus contribute to magic burst--not to mention the damage done in between ws and secondary job abilities where applicable.
A BLM's Blizzard4 will hit harder than that, nonburst. With a decent party, aggro really isn't an issue either, so toss that argument right out the window.

It all comes back to : empty melee damage, even if it is considerable, is not valuable. That's what makes the update so nice for lowbies, the pacts aren't just empty damage, they contribute to the party and also why they should extend such changes to the later moves. (FYI, the magic burst from avatars is laughable on same monsters in question. 300% spells hitting for 150, for only 118 MP plus cost to stay out to get TP..lol, wasteful. Mind you I have (manually) capped my skill to base of 269, with +32,+4 from merit)

Also on another note, no, the avatars don't have their own "specialties." All weaponskills have 2 components, attack power and base power, just like players. Case in point Flaming Crush; it hits stuff 20 levels below you harder than any other move, but put it up against an IT, VT, or otherwise and (if it hits, even with the best gear) it is sub-BLM 3 spell power, for much more MP. Predator claws is sucessful vs magic pots because they are BLM job (low evasion, defense, HP) and the move has the highest attack power variable, making it stronger vs higher cons. All avatar moves are "crushing" damage as well, so they receive another bonus vs pots. Hell, even with staff I have done 1/3 of the monster's life with a single non-sc'd ws before vs a VT pot..

[StarRealms]

there is no way in hell you did a 1700 spinning dive on the summoned seiryu - you should perhaps turn on your damage so you don't misinform people about how much damage your attacks are doing. The summoned gods have less hp (this is the most noticable part - even 500 damage gives a visable effect) but when I was using BPs on them I didn't really notice much of a decrease in defense compared to the regular gods. Old post but want to make sure some poor guy doesn't lvl smn thinking htis...