The Real SCH Group 2s

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

OK, fixed my PC (well, i really winged this fix, but it works). So lets talk the new Group 2s. We won't know fully how to go about them until the update, but at this point we have a really good idea of how they'll work.

First off, I'm impressed SE got them out so soon. Really, ToA jobs had to wait a year after Group 1s to get Group 2, so its nice to see SE really planned out SCH and DNC a lot better.

Still while they got out quickly and given how powerful SCH already was, the Group 2s do indeed come off a little disappointing. I'll not touch more than half of them while meritting.

Let's start off with Altruism and Focalization, they increase the accuracy of White and Black Magic spells respectively at the cost of two strategem charges.

There's really not that much to to with White Magic and accuracy aside from Enfeebles and at endgame, we have people who will take better care of the White Magic enfeebles, such as RDM anyway. We can't AoE White Magic enfeebs as is, so aside from landing those enfeebs single target, there's not much use for Altruism.

But then, it wasn't really clear if we would be able to merit these separately or in a pair. If in a pair, I suppose getting Alturism with Focalization wouldn't be a bad deal and giving full merits wouldn't be so bad. But if we merit these seprately, Altrumism isn't even worth looking at.

Focalization just has a lot more applications with nukes and landing black magic enfeebles. Manifestation Sleep II could finally mean something and Manifestation Gravity could stick more reliably thanks to Focalization.

Tranquility and Equanimity are pure-grade crap. This is why I sometimes worry that SE listens to players too much. The enmity reduction is needless for Traquility since Accession and Rapture already give you options that let you get less hate from Curing. Accession buffs might have a big enmity spike, but I'm sitting at a -19 Enmity build right now. Mobs don't even look at me. I could merit -enmity if I wanted to be safe. And if I need to Cure better than Cure III I can use Rapture toward Cure III and get less hate for that than tossing out a Cure IV.

I'm not looking for reasons to toss out Cure IV anyway, its a waste of MP and Rapture prevents me from having to use Penury on Cure IV, too.

Equanimity is different, but if I'm gettng hate for nuking outside of manaburn, I deserve to die. In manaburn I sometimes want to get hate to take heat off the other mages.

I won't touch either of these, even if they come packaged together.

Enlightenment - OK, this isn't half bad. Optimizes black and White Magic capabilities and allows access to both addenda for the next spell. Unless this gets merrited down to two minutes, I can't see it as that great, though.

If I'm in Light Arts, I'm not going to have any strategems I'd want to use Addendum:Black spells with. Well, unless I'm /WHM or /BLM, then I'd want Dispel... but why would I ever give up /RDM at this point anyway? Seems a tad silly.

If I'm in Dark Arts, it would give me access to the odd Erase or status cure every now and then and also things like Raise II or Reraise, but that's about it. But I'd still be unable to access Light Arts strategems, so I couldn't really remove stone in a pinch save for one target while Enlightenment was active.

Not bad, but not very amazing either.

Stormsurge lets storm-spells grant an attribute bonus associated with thier element. The Bonus is +3 with the first merit.

OK, let's break that down.

Rainstorm = +3 MND
Firestorm = +3 STR
Hailstorm = +3 INT
Windstorm = +3 AGI
Sandstorm = +3 VIT
Thunderstorm = +3 DEX
Aurorastorm = +3 CHR

All for the first merit.

Kinda fuzzy on how that relates to Voidstorm, though

We've been looking for reasons to shell out storm spells more often, this may very well be a decent one. Etude-like bonuses when we cast a storm spell on an ally or ourselves. This would give SCHs a little more to do in the standard party setting other than just spam accession Stoneskin, which has been a minor complaint of mine. And all the while it doesn't really come close to stepping on BRD, COR or SMN's toes.

Not like BRDs these days know what an Etude is anyway, they can hardly tie thier own shoes.

My only concern is that Hailstorm would make Ice Magic all the more dominant to SCH than it was before. Lacing it with INT only makes it all the more attractive than the others. And it goes without saying that melee will now whine for Firestorm and Thunderstorm. Something else to do with Accession, but this is a pretty good one.

So far I'm leaning:

4/5 Focalization
1/5 Enlightenment
5/5 Stormsurge

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

But then, it wasn't really clear if we would be able to merit these separately or in a pair. If in a pair, I suppose getting Alturism with Focalization wouldn't be a bad deal and giving full merits wouldn't be so bad. But if we merit these seprately, Altrumism isn't even worth looking at.

Actually, It was made pretty clear over at BG that they are in fact separate. Now, they could still be wrong but it was put up by people who actually attended the event like Elmer.

I have to say SCH's group 2's are extremely disappointing. I can see Focalization being used situationally, say to guarantee an Aero IV every 2 minutes on Kirin or to make sure Manifestation + Gravity sticks but then that's 3 stratagems blown on 1 spell.

I'd have to guess that storm surge caps @ +8 for the base stats, and Aurora/Nocto will be HP & MP.


Also, etudes blow BBQ >.> you should know this as well as I do.


The stat pumps even with the +2 effect generally fail vs Ballad II (though not Ballad I) and Minuet IV / III.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Also, etudes blow BBQ >.> you should know this as well as I do.

This is because there exist better Bard songs to use. For storms, however, there is no reason not to use them for the etude like bonuses, and the only alternatives there are for the storms spells are, well, themselves.

Being a Red Mage, though, I would still much rather have the appropriate storm on me for the Klimaform boost to magic accuracy, regardless of whatever base stat it gives. <.<

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Also, etudes blow BBQ >.> you should know this as well as I do

I'm a RoZ/CoP generation BRD, not the ToA generation BRD who neglects all duties save for pulling with Elegy and spamming Lullaby, so pardon me if I disagree. With the proper skills capped you could get a flat +10 attribute bonus off first tier Etudes with a Rose Harp +1.

Before we had Pianissimo, we had Etudes. They had plenty of applications, especially the MND, INT and STR Etudes.

SCH is able to make their Stormspells have a two-fold effect now, attribute bonuses on top of an existing weather bonus. Rainstorm for the Holy Bolt RNG or Chi-Blasting MNK or the Accession-happy SCH, Wind or Thunderstorm for THF SATAs, Thunderstorm for improving melee accuracy and critical hit rate slightly. Windstorm to improve evasion, ranged accuracy or QD accuracy. Plenty of applications.

These may not be as potent as what a BRD or COR could do, but they're not meant to be, they would be a bonus to what these spells already do. I suspect the max bonus would be +10 for 5/5 in Stormsurge, but well have to wait and see.

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

With the exception of a SAM, I'm still thinking adding well over 110 attack is going to outperform 2 maxed out +STR etudes.


Note I didn't say stormsurge is useless, just disappointing especially considering you're better off using accession on spells like Stoneskin, Regen II, Phalanx and on occasion enspells.

That doesn't mean you can't cast them manually and the buffs are nice, but unless you've got a tonne of MP you're sitting on I just don't see them getting a whole lot of use. At least not in a meripo anyway. But for HNMs and other end game events yah, SAM will love you for a maxed out Firestorm.

I was just really hoping for Haste =/

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Yes, but we don't only buff SAMs, now do we? Different jobs have different needs and most BRDs fail because they don't realize that.

And SCH's can't give AoE attack buffs anyway, so why would you be looking a gift horse in the mouth here? Its nice to have some additional utility for these spells. I can make my Accession Stoneskin/Phalanx stronger with Rainstorm, boost a RNG's Slugwinders with Firestorm, more CHR for DNCs from Aurorastorm, etc.

If the bonuses are substantial - and I think +10 is being generous (it could be more) - then this one merit category may trump the rest just for its versatility.

Also Tier 1 Etudes are superior to the second Tier, as they don't decay over time. No BRD in thie right mind would make frequent use of Tier 2 Etudes.

Note I didn't say stormsurge is useless, just disappointing especially considering you're better off using accession on spells like Stoneskin, Regen II, Phalanx and on occasion enspells.

That doesn't mean you can't cast them manually and the buffs are nice, but unless you've got a tonne of MP you're sitting on I just don't see them getting a whole lot of use. At least not in a meripo anyway. But for HNMs and other end game events yah, SAM will love you for a maxed out Firestorm.

There's nothing disappointing about getting such versatility out of eight spells that wasn't there before. That makes Stormsurge worth 5/5 in my book.

You could easily give up Phalanx for most meritpo situations to do Accession Firestorm oe Thunderstorm. And the cost of individual storm spells is fairly small. I've cast them frequently in meritpo as is for BRDs, RDMs and even PLDs to help with spell/song accuracy or cure potency.

I was just really hoping for Haste =/

Not surprised, you generally want broken things. Stormsurge is "disappointing" because I'd have to strategem it, but you have no problem with SCH blowing a charge on Haste and putting RDM and WHM out of meritpo forever.

Um... OK.

[Callisto]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

The Voidstorm question is something I'm confused on too, similar to some PUP theory a LS member said they read on Allak about if you have more of the stat correlating to the element of the Maneuver you use than your puppet does it reduces chance of Overloads, I was like...so you're supposed to have more MP than your puppet for Dark Maneuver then?

Anyways not like it matters, I can't really even see a general use for Voidstorm aside from Noctohelix. Still though, +7 INT for Hailstorm is rather nice.

[Lmnop]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

And if I need to Cure better than Cure III I can use Rapture toward Cure III and get less hate for that than tossing out a Cure IV.

I dunno if I'm seeing what you're saying here but to clarify: Cure 4 doesn't (as far as I know) magically garner more aggro than other cures. The hate you gain is based entirely off of the HP you cure. Rapture + Cure 3 = 270 HP worth of hate instead of 360. So it's less, but it's not like you're getting an extra 90 hp recovered (the amount Rapture is adding) hate-free. It does, however, significantly increase hp/mp efficiency (I did some math -- 5.89 hp/mp for rapture+cure 3 vs 4 hp/mp for cure 4 so close to 50% more efficient). I'm not sure that's worth the charge but I'm not a SCH.

So I'd think the -enmity thing would be cool if it only used one charge... but it doesn't.

----

As for Stormsurge, I'm expecting +11 to stats when maxed (3 initial, +2*4) but I don't think +15 is in any way overpowered. And it'd be nifty if Voidstorm were +1 to all stats +1/additional merit but I don't know about usefulness.

[Nuriko]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

If Voidstorm were +1 to each, I could see it being quite useful. DEX to hit, STR to damage, AGI to avoid, VIT to take hits, possibly INT and MND to withstand or land enfeebles ... that's +3 to +6 in boosts there, as compared to the +3 in a single stat that the other storms would give at best. It's not as useful in a "I-need-THIS-stat" case, but when you can make use of everything?

[Kasandaro]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

If Voidstorm were +1 to each

To maybe support this theory, consider that each elemental staff is +4 to a particular element. Dark Staff adds +1 to all attributes. (So's Light Staff, but why that one doesn't add to Charisma, I don't know.)

Is SE this nice to us? Prolly not, but it's nice to hope.

[Pteryx]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Tranquility and Equinamity as two-charge group 2 merit strategems was... not quite what I had in mind what I wanted SCH to get enmity down strategems. I was thinking a single-charge, subbable dose of job-appropriate actual defense that couldn't be abused the way native Blink or Stoneskin could -- a "good enough" stand-in for people who actually think a bit. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Anyways not like it matters, I can't really even see a general use for Voidstorm aside from Noctohelix. Still though, +7 INT for Hailstorm is rather nice.

Aspir-whoring, basically

With Voidstorm active, you'd get a bit more out of Aspir if you were using Diabolos' Pole, which I do have, but I haven't really gotten around to putting that one to the test yet.

Cure 4 doesn't (as far as I know) magically garner more aggro than other cures. The hate you gain is based entirely off of the HP you cure. Rapture + Cure 3 = 270 HP worth of hate instead of 360. So it's less, but it's not like you're getting an extra 90 hp recovered (the amount Rapture is adding) hate-free. It does, however, significantly increase hp/mp efficiency (I did some math -- 5.89 hp/mp for rapture+cure 3 vs 4 hp/mp for cure 4 so close to 50% more efficient). I'm not sure that's worth the charge but I'm not a SCH.

Its mainly the MP efficiency I was looking at, since gaining Rapture at 55 I've not had much use for Cure IV since AoE Stoneskin and Rapture-based cures were so effective. Accession Stoneskin/Phalanx/Regen II can do so much of the work for you that after that, you really only need small but efficienct cures.

[Callisto]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

I did test Diabolos' Pole a while back, and found it not remotely as good as Pluto's(at least for RDM, but with a rather strong Dark Magic build), and I guess it depends on how any Aspirs you would do during the duration of Voidstorm. If it's not more than 2 I don't think it really warrants the 30 MP cost, and even then for a gauranteed 10% boost with Anrin Obi you'd have to be pulling at least 100 per Aspir 4+ times to make it worth it. Seems more like a novelty than something actually useful.

Though like I said, Hailstorm + bonus INT is something I'd always welcome.

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

There's nothing disappointing about getting such versatility out of eight spells that wasn't there before.

I was disappointed at the lack of new spells BBQ. I wonder though, if SCH ever gets tier 2 storms what would that possibly do with Stormsurge? Even higher stat boosts? That'd be sweet.

SCH's Group 2's aren't bad per say, I just feel they could have been better. They're nothing mind blowing like what some of the other jobs got (AM II, Overwhelm, Snapshot, Feint to name a few)


There just ins't anything that screams out to be "OMG MUST HAVE IT!!!" just a few things that say "Well, that'd be kinda nice to have"

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

I don't think there will be Tier 2 storm spells, but there is still the chance they could make the relic occasionally give a double weather bonus or give an extra Stormsurge trait. Since Group 2s sometimes include Dynamis gear buffs, its a possibility.
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You know, if Voidstorm was just a +1 to everything, that would be pretty nice, but I got to thinking, if you got that 5th merit, being able to unlock a 1 MP/tick Refresh and Regen wouldn't be shabby.

But I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they do with Voidstorm, I'm very curious about that one.