Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

[Malacite]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

The thing that throws me off lately is a friend of mine (he myself and one other friend are all 75 SAM's ^^) swears that all the +STR you can get makes a huge impact now.

He was boasting some pretty big numbers with Hachiman Domaru compared to Haubergeon... and if that's true, then wouldn't Shinsoku at least match Hagun? Yeah there's a bigger multiplier on Hagun, but shinsoku effectively has nearly 10 DMG more on it (5 base +5 STR with 75% mod)

[raidenn]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

Guess it depends if you have enough accuracy. Its a nice item to have though. I stopped for a month to farm for it around your level... That was when it costs 3mil.
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By the way, you'll get a lot of damage from STR gear because of the WS modifiers.
here's a description on how much STR contributes...

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tachi:_Gekko

Just remember even with all the str you have, when you're fighting hi-evasion mobs, it kinda sucks to miss on your weaponskills.

[Armando]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

No offense to you or your friend, but anyone that thinks that 1) trivial amounts of STR (e.g. 5 STR) make a huge difference, and 2) that he/she can see that difference, is fooling himself. The fact is that STR doesn't make big differences point-for-point in a WS's base DMG, and that WSs have such a big damage range that you can't hope to notice the difference before your observations fall prey to bias (e.g. "Oh, that was a high Gekko! It must've been the extra STR!") Anyways, let's do some math to see how big/small the difference is now.

Shinsoku has a 9 DMG advantage over Hagun (3 from the STR mod, which has approximately a conversion ratio of 0.6225 DMG per 1 STR at Lv.75; 1 from fSTR, since very 4 STR or so raises fSTR by 1; and obviously 5 from normal DMG.) But how much that 9 DMG is worth depends on how much STR you already have. Obviously if you could have 10000 DMG then 9 more is just a drop in the bucket.

Let's say both SAMs have about 100 STR with gear taken into consideration.
- Mr. Hagun SAM would have 75 DMG from Hagun, 62 DMG from the STR mod, and let's say an fSTR of 6. Total: 143 DMG.
- Mr. Shinsoku SAM would have 80 DMG from Shinsoku, 65 DMG from the STR mod, and an fSTR of 7. Total: 152 DMG

Shinsoku SAM has 6.3% more DMG than Hagun SAM right now. (As you can see, 9 DMG is only a 6.3% improvement, which is too small to eyeball, and you'd need 10-12 STR to get that much extra DMG into your WS.) Shinsoku SAM has an fTP multiplier of 1.75, bringing his WS's base damage to 266. On the other hand, Hagun SAM has an fTP multiplier of 2.00, bringing his WS's base damage to 286.

So in this example the Hagun SAM actually has a 7.5% advantage overall compared to the one using Shinsoku, despite Shinsoku's extra 9 DMG. Shinsoku also has an extra 5 Attack over Hagun, but 5 Attack isn't enough to close that gap.

Onimaru would have 8 extra DMG instead of 9, but also have 5 Acc and 16 Attack (as opposed to Shinsoku's 5 Attack.) With that and 10% more DMG/sec than Hagun, Onimaru could win in terms of total DMG.

EDIT: And Hachiman Domaru sucks next to Haubergeon. 8 STR, 8 Attack, 8 WS Acc vs 5 STR, 15 Attack, 15 Acc...it's obvious who the winner is. Losing out on Attack and Acc for a meager 3 STR is not a good idea.

[Omni]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

Malacite, you have a lot of friends that swear a lot of things. :p

anyhow, hachiman doesnt compare with a haubie but its a cheap and good alternative if you cant afford a haubie.

[Dymlos]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

Well like I said, I bought my Hauby. Now I'm wondering what would be better, Okote for the +20 attack, or Hachiman kote? +20 attack is great but I wouldn't mind having that Store TP +8 (w/Hachiman boots) to help slightly boost my TP gain. I've tried camping Okote NM and at times I wonder if it's really worth the trouble.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

Hachiman Kote is arguably better if it lowers the number of hits required to obtain 100TP by one. The +16 ATK and -4 STR that Okote provides compared to Hkote just isn't enough. Remember 4 STR raises base damage by 1 and gives you 4 ATK.

Hachiman Kote helps me output 25% more Penta Thrusts while using an Engetsuto polearm. It does this by bringing me from a 6-hit TP build down to a 5-hit TP build, which is at least a 12% improvement in overall damage since more of my damage comes from WS than DoT.

[Omni]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

Store TP imo, shouldnt be considered as a factor unless you are going for a store tp build.

[Malacite]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

I was skeptical when he made that those claims and I still am. I kept telling him there's no way 3 more STR is better than the attack bonus from Haub >_>

[Lmnop]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

Store TP imo, shouldnt be considered as a factor unless you are going for a store tp build.

You're right. The H Kote shouldn't be considered by themselves. They're only better than O Kote if they're gonna get you a WS one swing earlier. If them + another easy piece of store tp+ will do the trick, then by all means do it. Way cheaper than Haste gear.

EDIT: Incidentally, Store TP IV (25%) + Hachiman Hands/feet (13%) + Brutal (1%) + Chiv Chain (1%) still isn't enough to get you to a 5 hit build. Unless I figured something wrong. 450 GK is 11.5 base tp. All the above mentioned Store TP adds up to 40% so 11.5*1.4=16.1. In 6 swings 16.1*6=96.6 + 7th "free" hit from last WS. You need just a wee bit more to push you over the edge.

[Zempten]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

I think the only time to even consider a store TP setup is after you get 5/5 Store TP Merits.

[Malacite]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

I think the only time to even consider a store TP setup is after you get 5/5 Store TP Merits.

Not true. You can do it at level 70 for 6-hit if you use Hachiman gear, and it's well worth it IMO. The merits just help you switch out more pieces of equipment.


Finally, I made a store TP thread a while back and you need somewhere aroudn 71-74% (I forget exact amount) Store TP for a 5-hit build, which requires a lot of expensive and rare equipment.

You're better off going for a haste set up anyway since if you can reach 50% or higher (gear + abilities) you'll be swinging twice as often and with a Soboro that's just evil.

[Zempten]

Re: Hauby still required for SAM after 2-Handed update?

What I mean is your better off TPing in Hauby and O.Kote or whatever Haste gear, which you just said yourself.

I didn't say it was impossible just impractical given the alternatives