Hagun vs. Ushikirimaru vs. Relic GKT (A mechanics post)

[Naramaska]

Ok, first off, two things.

1: Let it be noted--I am not a SAM. I have a lot of friends who are SAM70+ however, and i'm a whore for analyzing how game mechanics work. Because of this, hagun's "TP Bonus" trait interests me greatly.

2: This post is mostly about end-game HNM fights where (from my experience) a SAM will usually be on the sideline untill they use meditate and can use a WS. Because of this, I am purely analyzing WS damage. It's fairly obvious that Ushikirimaru or Amanomurakumo will do more damage per hit than Hagun. However, it's the TP bonus that makes the weapon interesting to me, really.

Can the TP bonus trait overcome the inately higher base damage that ushikirimaru, or even the fully-upgraded relic GKT have on WS's? To do this, we've got to look at the formula for WS's.

please try to find holes in my reasoning and math here. I'm just doing this to crunch some numbers and try to get my SAM friends to be the best they can in HNM fights

WS information taken from a post by Archain, who got the information from Rugal & Applepie
here: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/journal2....06680697846812
and here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...4&pagenumber=1

Actual Damage of WS is then calculated in this way.

Damage = WD * PDIF = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D: Base damage of your WS

D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)

fSTR: difference between your STR and target's VIT

WSC: Secondary attribute like STR_30 (30% of your STR).

fTP: Multiplier (Please see chart below).

PDIF: (your ATK/target�s DEF)

For all 3 weapons, the difference in fSTR (+2 from ushikirimaru) is small enough to be negligable. WSC for all 3, again, will be small enough to be nearly identical. PDIF vs. a HNM or god, where defence is taken to an extreme, is the only unknown. We don't really know the values in defence, so we have to work purely on theoretical numbers....but I think this largely drops out, as you'll see later.

For both tachi: kasha, and tachi: gekko, fTP is as follows:

100% - 1.5x
200% - 2.0x
300% - 2.5x

Hagun: D75
Ushikirimaru: D82
Relic GKT: D88

Remember, fSTR and WSC are roughly equal between all 3 weapons; seemingly small enough to be negligable. Therefore, treat them as constants, meaning they're relatively unimportant to the equation.

Hagun's "TP Bonus" gives it an extra 100% TP on weapon skills. As shown above, for every 100% TP, SAM WS's get a bonus of .5x to the fTP.

Damage = WD * PDIF = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

100% TP calculations:

Hagun: ((75)*2)*PDIF = 150 * PDIF = 150PDIF
Ushikirimaru: ((82)*1.5)*PDIF = 123 * PDIF = 123PDIF
Relic GKT: ((88)*1.5)*PDIF = 132 * PDIF = 132PDIF

PDIF, however, is unknown. It's given by (Your Attack/Enemy Defence). If we graph rising values of PDIF, we can see just where the relic GKT or Ushikirimaru would surpass the Hagun. To do this, we need the formulas to determine how much attack each will have. BUT! We don't need these.

PDIF: 0.0 ~ 2.4 (3.0 on criticals) depending on [Your attack / target's defence]

Taken from: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=50753

Assuming that you have the highest possible PDIF (3.0 from SATA), Hagun will come out ahead. Keep in mind, a 3.0 would be a SA on something like a tunnel worm. Against any HNM or god, your values will be lower, however.

At 200% TP, the same thing seems to happen

Hagun: ((75)*2.5)*PDIF = 187.5 * PDIF = 187.5PDIF
Ushikirimaru: ((82)*2.0)*PDIF = 164 * PDIF = 164PDIF
Relic GKT: ((88)*2.0)*PDIF = 176 * PDIF = 176PDIF

What's interesting is to notice that the D75 Hagun still will theoretically outdamage the relic GKT in "ideal" situations where you hit the maximum PDIF of 3.0.

Above 200% though, things get kind of blurry. Since we don't really know how TP scales for WS, and since TP bonus weapons don't allow TP to scale beyond 300% (supposedly, I want to test this soon), hagun will quickly fall behind ushikirimaru and the relic GKT above 200% TP.

What does all this mean? If you're doing a god fight, your best bet seems to be to get 300% with the beefiest weapon you've got and do your WS of choice with it. After that, switch to Hagun and use it with meditate for your WS's.






PLEASE try to poke holes in my math or reasoning. I very well may have FUBAR'd some calculation somewhere, or misunderstood parts of the formula. Supposedly, Hagun will be overshadowed above 200% TP, but before that, it looks to be stronger than even the relic GKT for WS's.

So please, reply, and tell me if i'm wrong so I can go back over and see where I messed up and can understand these formulae better to help out my SAM friends

[Klades]

Just based on my own experiences with using SA+WS, I'll agree that Hagun is probably more useful than any other realistically obtainable GKT for WS-only fights.

You can only compare it with the Relic GKT so far, however, because you have to remember that the Relic GKT grants its user a completely new weaponskill that probably performs better than the current top three.

[kujo412]

yeah, like klades said, given the option most people would probably opt for a relic katana. you'll hit for a ton more per hit, not to mention a bit more accurately. you'll also get tachi: kaiten, which could have completely different modifiers and is only accessible with relic katana equipped.

hagun seems pretty good though, especially paired with saotome kote where you get 200tp (300tp with hagun) every 3 minutes or faster. i hope to pick one up when the price drops a bit more.

[Nodachi]

I was thinking of whether Hagun would be a better choice overall over Kamewari and Ushikirimaru other night but, i really think in EXP situations it may not be the best choice. However. For some of the more difficult HNMs such as the new Wyrms, Kirins and similiar alike, Hagun may be ideal. Since regular hits mean jack (as you hardly hit these things), you're able to make full use of meditate. I meditate once, get 160% TP, and with Hagun i'm almost at 300%, that's amazing. So i would recomend Hagun for HNM fights but not so much for EXP situations.

[Enichi]

i used hagun in an exp pt today and it worked great..... went with /war sub just to test the acc of my ws.... out of the 2hr i was there exping i missed twice on my ws..... acc of ws is also based on tp so hagun isnt all to bad in exp pt..... true you lose out on DoT but you make up for it when you ws and not miss....... was hitting for 500-800 dmg with about 120ish tp when i ws..... and was able to pull off a 1081 gekko. This was done with /war sub..... i have yet to try it with /thf sub in an exp pt... but my guess is my ws dmg will be a constant 900+ with just 100 tp........ when i go out lvling again, with /thf sub...... ill let you know my dmg out put for ws.....