Samurai....yeah we got boned again

[protoroc]

say goodbye to EVER finding a pt now....u thought it was hard before 50+, sam drg and drk are totally screwed, expect to see alot more monks running around, i should practiacly sell my account on ebay, before eveyone relize what a POS this char is now

[fuz]

Don't understand that, since most classes don't rely on multi-hits as nearly as much as drg. Just a minor nerf for others imo.

[protoroc]

whats the rant is not just the TP problem its the fact that makes ninja and monks even more atractive to pt

[fuz]

Monks are just damage dealers, not much else going for them. They are still limited to h2h for better or worse. It's just that now they can be viable for HNM hunts, which is something I think they needed. They didn't get a damage boost, just a usefulness boost.

Nin are so expensive, the subtle blow trait is hardly noticeable except to the exceptionaly wealthy. Maybe it's just enough to take back the stranglehold pld has in the tanking department. Besides war can still sub nin to tank just as well.

[krycis]

fuz,

I don't understand where you're coming from in relation to your ideas as how Subtle Blow affects NIN in parties. Frankly, S-E has gone on the record saying that they didn't want NIN tanking. I also don't see how the new trait makes NIN any better at tanking? Mobs just get less TP from attacks from MNK and NIN, that doesn't do much for NIN compared to MNK and definately doesn't do anything for a NIN in tanking position.

[Klades]

When you get down to it, this change makes SAM (and BLM) more attractive to PTs, not less. Now we are no longer outpaced in TP gain because of multihit attacks, no longer is BLM outclassed due to the spam-potential of said multihit attacks.


One bad note about this though: If you miss the first swing of a multihit, say Enpi, and the second one connects, you get 1% TP back.

[protoroc]

Originally posted by krycis
I don't understand where you're coming from in relation to your ideas as how Subtle Blow affects NIN in parties. Frankly, S-E has gone on the record saying that they didn't want NIN tanking.

heres what it does, it lower the tp gained by enemies, how does this make ninja more attractive tank? Area of Effect. ninja can just avoid AOEs and now cause less of them to happen for the rest of the combat, thats good...something a pld cannot do, pld is already dicked by the fact that a ninja tank doesnt require a whm

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by protoroc


heres what it does, it lower the tp gained by enemies, how does this make ninja more attractive tank? Area of Effect. ninja can just avoid AOEs and now cause less of them to happen for the rest of the combat, thats good...something a pld cannot do, pld is already dicked by the fact that a ninja tank doesnt require a whm

First off, I don't see how the pld is "dicked" by the fact that his party requires a whm...

Yes, a paladin based party might need a healer, but the difference in kill speed isn't much because the damage dealers can let loose much more with a paladin than they can with a ninja (even WITH a thf).

Also, when someone dies in the ninja party (and someone will eventually, unless you're very lucky or you've partied with them before), have fun finding a raise II or III.

And if your location becomes overcrowded, have fun getting back to jeuno, buying another teleport, and then getting to your next camp spot.



As far as samurai/drk/drg getting screwed, imo, the only one to take it in the face are dragoons. The jobs effected most beneficially are BLM, SAM, and RGN. All of these jobs get their role in the party further defined. For blm and rgn, it's damage dealer. People used to say that other classes could compare to their damage output by spamming multi-hit weapon skills. Now, that's no longer the case. Other melee jobs now are forced to play their real role - create skill chains. The patch benefits samurai because now, you truly are the master of skill chains. No other job will keep up with your TP gain but ranger's...but ranger's do that at the expense of their own safety (and at their own actual expense)...

Even in terms of screwing dragoons over....OH NOS you lost pentathrust...a whifftacular WS on IT's that hits for 100-200 damage and doesn't renkei worth a shit....what a shame. To be honest, none of the dragoon's I've partied with from getting penta thrust up to lv64 have used penta simply because it whiffs like mad against IT's, and doesn't even do that much damage.
So basically, all they lost was the ability to farm quickly. Cry me a friggin river. Go farm with a class like blm, brd, or whm for a while (blm being the best of those 3, but sitting around for 3 minutes getting MP back blows considering we can't take much more than the mobs found in palborough upper levels or inner horutoto). You think you have it tough now? We've been like this since the beginning of the game.

[SlipA]

"Other melee jobs now are forced to play their real role - create skill chains."


Ha! guess what, now it's hard to even do 1 renkei per fight. 25-35% tp return would be perfect for doing 1 renkei a fight, but getting 2-15 is just not enough to consistently do it. Especially with magic bursts getting bigger and bigger, there is just too much overkill if you try to do 1 per fight now, as its impossible to gain 90% tp in 1/2 of the monsters life. Unless you're samurai, of course.

I think it's much better now to include pld in a separate skillchain if your sam, since the other melee will never come close to keeping up like they could with guillotine, penta, or raging rush.

[krycis]

Originally posted by protoroc


heres what it does, it lower the tp gained by enemies, how does this make ninja more attractive tank? Area of Effect. ninja can just avoid AOEs and now cause less of them to happen for the rest of the combat, thats good...something a pld cannot do, pld is already dicked by the fact that a ninja tank doesnt require a whm

The affect on the TP of a mob will be negligable. How much TP does a NIN effectively give to a mob? Mob TP is based on the amount of TP you gain per hit. A SAM therefor generates more enemy TP per hit than a NIN. For MNKs this is a godsend, with their multi-hit skills and generally higher-TP gaining attacks (although S-E's taken care of it a bit with the WS TP changes). So a NIN doesn't get hit with one AoE? You still have 2 or 3 other people beating on the mob increasing that sucker's TP. Just because a PLD will cause more TP-gain doesn't mean that you'll have people flocking to NIN to tank...they already are a very viable job for tanking, subtle blow only marginally increases their general party-ablity regardless of their role therein.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by SlipA
Ha! guess what, now it's hard to even do 1 renkei per fight.

No it's not :/

I just logged out from a party (lv31) where me and the RNG did Piercing Arrow > Tachi: Enpi almost every fight against IT Gobs in Yhoator Jungle. And by almost, I mean over 90% of the time.

As for not landing the first hit and only getting 1%, I changed my sub to THF for this problem. I was planning on sticking with /WAR, but now that I need my WS's to hit along with as much TP return as possible, I'm sticking with /THF. However, if a leader asks me to change (or if we have THF and we need an extra 'voke for trick) then I have /WAR ready.

[SlipA]

uh, well if you have a 2 person chain where one is a sam, and the other is a ranger (ie, builds tp twice as fast as any melee in the game), then yes you can renkei consistenly.

When guillo > raging rush >>Thundaga2 + thunder2 burst destroys 3/4 of the monsters life, you just cannot make up tp that fast for the next mob without major overkill. Trust me, it just doesnt happen unless your guillo and raging both miss several hits. Piercing arrow...i dont even remember the last time i saw that in renkei.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by krycis
The affect on the TP of a mob will be negligable. How much TP does a NIN effectively give to a mob? Mob TP is based on the amount of TP you gain per hit.

No, it's not. Mobs get a set amount of TP per hit received. Larger delay (which almost always directly = larger damage) attacks do not give more TP. Since NIN and MNK have their effectively damage split into two parts, they get this trait to make up for it; they build mob TP twice as fast as other classes.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by ZQM
As for not landing the first hit and only getting 1%, I changed my sub to THF for this problem.

I don't think it even works this way.

I think the first hit (not the first attack) in a WS gives you the normal amount of TP. All additional hits should return 1% TP.

Has anyone tested it yet?

[davidmmmm9]

and when using a multihit ws with sneak attack, SA only garuntees the first of the multihits, so your arguement is moot.
moo