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  • Dual wield question

    I thought I remember reading that dual-wielding a joy will do less damage overtime than single wielding it? Is that true? I can't think of how that works out. Dual wielding, with haste gear and -5% dual wielding gear, i would think youd be swinging faster and gaining tp faster than single wielding. Right?

    Also, does it make a difference if what you're offhanding is a MK, a multihit weapon. I'm just thinking dual wielding something that have the chance to hit 5 times in 1 swing has to help out DOT (including WS's obviously) as oppose to single wielding a joy.
    75: Sam, Nin, Blm, Thf, Pld, Cor, Rdm
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    Originally posted by Etra
    This thread brought to you by Malacite's lack of understanding.

  • #2
    Re: Dual wield question

    Warning: Math ahead. If you don't like Math you shouldn't have asked such a technical question.
    I thought I remember reading that dual-wielding a joy will do less damage overtime than single wielding it?
    Depends what you're dual wielding it with. The trend is that pairing up weapons of different DPS results in a DPS close to the average*. For instance, pairing up a Joyeuse (13.59 DPS with multi-hit factored in) with a Blau Dolch (11.12 DPS while latent active) results in 12.36 DPS before the Delay reduction. That's lower than Joyeuse alone - but the Delay reduction will increase the DPS by a factor of 1/(1-DW%). With Dual Wield II and Suppanomimi, that's 1/0.8 = x1.25. So the real DPS is 15.45 which is definitely higher than a single wielded Joytoy. Blau Dolch also has the benefit of having +Acc and +Attack which will "spill over" and increase the damage of the Joyeuse hand too.

    Of course for RDMs there's only 2 daggers: "Blau Dolch" and "Shit." If you're not using a Blau Dolch, the DPS will be lower. If you don't have a Suppanomimi, the DPS will be lower. If you're pairing it with, say, a Misericorde (pretty much the next best thing that isn't Misericorde +1) and not using Suppanomimi, you get 13.48 DPS - practically the same as single wielded Joyeuse (99% of its DPS.) However, there's still the matter of TP.

    When you pair up a multi-hit weapon with a non-multihit weapon, the extra TP gain you get from the multi-hit weapon is halved. The reason is simple - when you're Dual Wielding, only half of your hits come from Joyeuse. (Likewise, if you dual wield a weapon with an added effect with one that doesn't, you're halving your chances to proc the added effect.) So instead of getting 45% more TP from Joyeuse's multi-hits, you'll get 22.25% more TP. On the other hand, a single-wielded Joyeuse can't use Evisceration, and Dual Wield provides an extra hit to the WS. Still, your Eviscerations probably won't be very...inspiring if you're swinging a Misericorde. They'll surely still be better than Vorpal Blade, but they need to be about 20% better to make up for the reduced TP speed.
    Dual wielding, with haste gear and -5% dual wielding gear, i would think youd be swinging faster and gaining tp faster than single wielding. Right?
    Dual Wielding doesn't improve TP gain unless you're using two low Delay weapons (anything over 200 doesn't count) and have at least Dual Wield II. This is because the TP formulas become skewed at very low Delay values. Haste gear affects both builds equally so it's irrelevant.

    Bottom line: BD + Joyeuse > Solo Joyeuse as long as solo Joyeuse isn't popping Berserk. Non-BD + Joyeuse might be slightly better, might break even, that's too much math for me to bother with.

    Also, does it make a difference if what you're offhanding is a MK, a multihit weapon.
    You'll have a TP gain in between Joyeuse and MK but your DPS will also be poor thanks to the MK's low DPS, and MK's low DMG means you're boned WS-wise no matter which weapon you use (dagger main hand = 8 DMG Eviscerations, sword main hand = no Vorpal Blade thanks to /NIN.)

    *The error of this estimation is larger the bigger the difference in DPS and Delay between both weapons. If the weapons have different DPS but the same Delay, the estimate is 100% accurate.
    Last edited by Armando; 11-19-2009, 11:31 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: Dual wield question

      Awesome, thanks. Dual-wielding with a BD and joy only thing that goes... thanks!
      75: Sam, Nin, Blm, Thf, Pld, Cor, Rdm
      RANK 10 Bastok
      CoP: Done
      ZM: Done
      ToA: Done
      Assault rank: Captain
      Campaign Medal: Medals
      Wotg: Complete the quests already and I'll start

      Originally posted by Etra
      This thread brought to you by Malacite's lack of understanding.

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      • #4
        Re: Dual wield question

        Actually I just realized that this statement:
        Still, your Eviscerations probably won't be very...inspiring if you're swinging a Misericorde. They'll surely still be better than Vorpal Blade, but they need to be about 20% better to make up for the reduced TP speed.
        Can be flawed depending on whether or not you have a choice of using something other than /NIN. If you MUST go /NIN for whatever you're trying to do, it's irrelevant whether your Eviscerations are 20% better than your Vorpals since you can't Vorpal as /NIN under any circumstance and your other options are pretty meh. So for /NIN you pretty much want to Dual Wield even if you're using a Misericorde.

        However, yes, absurdly overpriced as it may be, there is sadly no substitute for a Blau Dolch. It's leagues better than any other non-Relic dagger you could possibly use.
        Last edited by Armando; 11-19-2009, 12:28 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Dual wield question

          Originally posted by Armando View Post
          Of course for RDMs there's only 2 daggers: "Blau Dolch" and "Shit."
          A++, would fall in love again
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          • #6
            Re: Dual wield question

            Originally posted by Armando View Post
            Of course for RDMs there's only 2 daggers: "Blau Dolch" and "Shit.
            Hi2u Hornet Needle?
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            • #7
              Re: Dual wield question

              Hi2u Hornet Needle?
              Enjoy your Lv.48 DPS. I'll be over here with the weapons that don't suck.

              And before you start if for whatever reason (God knows which, as it has been proven that 99 out of every 100 solo RDMs are not Avesta) you were fighting something so incredibly resistant to physical damage that the increased Enspell frequency makes up for the pathetic melee damage, you might as well go all-out and use Ceremonial Dagger.
              Last edited by Armando; 11-19-2009, 12:43 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Dual wield question

                ....


                Shit = Mandau?


                I win ^^

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                • #9
                  Re: Dual wield question

                  Originally posted by ShepardG View Post
                  ....


                  Shit = Mandau?


                  I win ^^
                  You need to learn how to read.
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                  HTTP Error 418 - I'm A Teapot - The resulting entity body MAY be short and stout.

                  loose

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                  • #10
                    Re: Dual wield question

                    This brings up and interesting question with me: So does the additional hit from the Joyuese give you regular TP as if you were hitting it single handed, or TP as if you were dual wielding. What rule does it follow? I'm not quite grasping where you said pairing up multi hit weapons with non-mhw halves the tp gain from the MHW.

                    Are you saying that Joyuese proc rate for hitting is halved? Or are you saying that the hit rate is havled vs not DW JT.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Dual wield question

                      Ok, let me explain how it works in detail, hopefully it'll make sense once the explanation is over. I didn't want to bog down the OP with this since it was sort of tangential to the questions he asked.

                      Basically when you Dual Wield, the game uses the average Delay in the TP calculations. Let's take Blau Dolch and Joyeuse for example.
                      Blau Dolch = 178 Delay
                      Joyeuse = 224 Delay
                      Total Delay = 178 + 224 = 402
                      Now we apply the Delay reduction from Dual Wield (let's assume Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi)
                      402 * 0.80 = 321.6 Delay
                      So there's 321 Delay between attack rounds.

                      Now when the game does the TP calculations, it uses the average: 321/2 = 160 Delay. So even though the weapons have different Delays, they're treated equally when Dual Wielding - both of them give 4.8 TP per hit as if they were 160 Delay weapons. If Joyeuse procs an extra hit, it'll give 4.8 TP too.

                      Now let's take a closer look at the TP gain issue.

                      Joyeuse has a 45% chance to proc an extra hit, so when single wielded, you have a 45% chance to double your TP gain each attack round. In other words it gives 45% more TP than a weapon normally would.

                      Now let's go back to the BD+Joytoy example. As far as the game is concerned, you have two 160 Delay weapons. The game waits 321 Delay (160x2) and then both weapons attack together. It's like your Joyeuse only swings half the time - imagine that you were single wielding, and you get an attack round every 160 Delay, except one attack round uses Blau Dolch, the next uses Joyeuse, then the next uses Blau Dolch again. It's the same thing. So although Joyeuse still has 45% chance to get double TP when it swings, it has to wait twice its Delay to swing, which means it's swinging half as often as it technically should be. The net effect on your TP rate is that the Joyeuse's benefits are halved - instead of getting 45% more TP, you get 22.5% more.

                      Of course, you may be thinking "But wait, Joyeuse *isn't* a 160 Delay weapon, it's a 224 Delay weapon." Sure, but remember that TP is proportional to Delay - lower Delay, lower TP per hit. So it stays roughly proportional*.

                      *My earlier post was a little bit wrong. Turns out that even though Joyeuse's Delay is relatively high (224), Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi still manages to drop your average Delay below 180, which is the point where the TP formula skews. So you do get a slight boost to your TP from Dual Wielding in this case.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Dual wield question

                        Last time I checked Hornet Needle was still a very good RDM dagger for abusing enspells (or even ceremonial dagger for feeding 0 tp)
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                        • #13
                          Re: Dual wield question

                          Last time I checked Hornet Needle was still a very good RDM dagger for abusing enspells (or even ceremonial dagger for feeding 0 tp)
                          Again, against, what, elementals? There's no point in "abusing" enspells if you're going to kill your melee damage to do so.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Dual wield question

                            Originally posted by Malacite View Post
                            Last time I checked Hornet Needle was still a very good RDM dagger for abusing enspells (or even ceremonial dagger for feeding 0 tp)
                            If the OP was going to abuse En-spells I'd think he'd just use his Joyeuse.
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                            • #15
                              Re: Dual wield question

                              Actually the hornet needle / ceremonial dagger would be better for tier 2 enspells wouldn't they?


                              And I know some RDM's use the 0-TP build for nastier mobs and things like the prime avatars. Hornet Needle was considered a very good weapon for RDM for quite a long time, wasn't aware that it suddenly became crap >_>
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