Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I'll leave you to decide which one says anything close to "battle mage."

Yes, Yellow Mage and Ptreyx, I went there.

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

Explain this one then, for those who are so against RDM Melee.

I know your tricks! You can't get me!! /sarcasticparanoia

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

There are lots of good idea's in this thread, but in the end it's a mage.

You obviously missed kitten's fallacy above you (which you must have thanked blindly, then): what about Blue Mage?

With a decent sword skill. But you won't even learn the most damaging sword skill unless you use Warrior as a subjob.

Or Paladin (me). Or Dark Knight (Calli). Oh, and let us not forget the aforementioned Blue Mage.

EDIT: Electricity, FFXIclopedia got that from here, a much more official source.

[Deeke]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

People keep forgetting that this concept isn't about players themselves getting all frothy in the pants about moving up to the front-line.

It's about SE officially mentioning they themselves are a bit frothy.

Toss around as many battle-mage definitions as you like, tell RDM players to get over themselves as much as you like. It's irrelevant.

SE are interested in this.


/equip Head "Hypothesizing Hat" or don't bother posting in the thread.

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

EDIT: Electricity, FFXIclopedia got that from here, a much more official source.

Oh yeah, that's right. Thanks.

Well, Damn. There goes my conspiracy theory.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

You obviously missed kitten's fallacy above you (which you must have thanked blindly, then): what about Blue Mage?

You're missing something else I said. I was also pointing out the different spell lists that Red Mage and Blue Mage or any other comparable job has. It seems like you're the one missing the point on it.

Omgwtfbbqkitten was pointing out how Blue Mage was much more a "battle mage" than Red Mage, using descriptions created by the developpers themselves.

[MrMageo]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I think I may have said tis back on page one or maybe in some other post. I would prefer not to see any update to RDM melee. I worked hard as many other have to be able to call ourselves hybrid mages. I have toyed with /nin, /blu, /dnc, drk, and even /sam. The tools are available to being a hybrid RDM. However with the tools must come knowledge.

Its nt the numbers we need a fixing in, it is the the players who wish to become hybrid RDM's, and those who oppose it that need fixing.

A few things you need to nderstand about this Hybrid RDM thing is..

1. We are not meant to be DD's, we are there for DoT.
2. We are a support job, that includes backline and frontline.

I hypothesize that instead of whirring up a think blog. Filled with ripe anti-melee comments, we should instead discuss Inteligent melee from the perspective of RDM.

What I mean by this of course, is providing insight into the hybrid style of rdm. Of course I expect a barrage from the anti- camp, that of course is to be expected. The main concern in that camp is change. They do not wish to have to go out and buy a new set of gear and learn a new art. As BBQ so graiciously posted RDM is an adept swordsman, and their are many ways to do this, sensibly.

1. Know your enemy

If you are fighting a monster with AoE silence and sleep, of course you want to stay back as far as possible, it becomes costly to remove silence on the front line and you just become another burden for the whm or /whm to fix.

If your fighting a monster with severe aoe enfeebles (slow,blind,para) bring a job that you can use to combat those enfeebles. /DNC has a nifty little erase tool that can remove most status debuffs.

If your fighting a monster with hard hitting AoE damage, bring a job that has a curaga, such as /BLU. This will allow you to support the party by curring everyone (cheaper than a /whm if I may say so).

What it boil down to is common sense and smart play, if you know the enemy before hand you can fare well against it while meleeing.

2. Know your role.

Your next priority is what is the job you have been brought in to do... are you healing, enfeebling, general support.

There are sub jobs for all of these positions

/BLU, offers curaga, sleepga, a cheaper cure 3
/DNC, offers an erase, a curage, drain samba, aspir samba
/DRK, offers absorb spells, drain, aspir, attack boosts

even /sam brings something to the table, The addition of meditation makes getting those weak weaponskills of more frequently.

This is not to say that backline is also always out of the equation at time you may need your staves, if this is the situation then your meleeing becomes counter productive. It is something you must find for yourself. Practice enfeebling monsters without the staves equipped. Once you are able to post a 75-80% success rate without staves you will be fine to leave them at home.

The anti-melee camp will try and combat this, no doubt in my mind however here is a few things you can tell them.

"Why keep a RDM around if they are meleeing ill just drop it and get a DD"

Sure you may gain a 15% increase in damage but you also get a 100% decrease in support. When warriors monks and samurai can offer as much support as a RDM then you have a viable arguement.

"You don't have enough room for all your gear"

You may not have enough room for all your gear carying around 5 ses of gear that you may or may not use. A hybrid carries gear to fix his short commings, that means skill + gear of ACC+ gear.

"Your pidly damage just feeds the mob TP"

Depending on the subjob chosen you can quickly recover from that eventual TP move with curaga's (DNC/BLU), dispel (RDM), Erase(DNC). With the options available now to RDM that boost hybrid abilities this no longer holds water.

"Its only a highly situational thing"

No it is as situational as main healing. You can make it what you wan't to. Their is no ideal set up because RDM alters a setup depending on its role. A Hybrid mage is capable of doing all the fun backline suff while on the front line.


Lets hypothesize this for a moment. A rdm X6 Party

RDM/NIN -tank
RDM/THF - hate control
RMD/DNC - Main healer
RDM/WAR - DD/back up Tank
RDM/DRK - DD
RDM/BLU - Support/DD


Tell me what I am missing, this party will function just as good as a traditional party. The kill speed may be a bit slower, but the fact is this party will be damn near imposible to take down and there will be virtually no downtime.. They can all pull, they can all melee, they can all nuke, they can all enfeeble, they all have refresh and conver, they can all take damage, they can all cure.


The reason RDM is heavily frowned up is because 9/10 times it is not done inteligently and in all honesty this is what we need to hypothesize, how to teach people, who want a hand out.

[Deeke]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

*Yawn*

Just what exactly did any of that have to do with this particular thread?

[MrMageo]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Basically it means no amount of hypothesies nor boosts (which imo have already occured) will bring RDM to the frontline. As an active hybrid RDM the key factor I see most people miss out on is the core values of our job. It takes place in all the aspects RDM's look at. we are not a single dedicated job, we may main heal ut we still provide other support, we may enfeeble but we still support in other ways. RDM is a multi purpose job, you can gear yourself to be better in certain areas but the fact is we are a support job first and xxxxx last same goes with melee.

I provided m example of what id like to see in an update but I also acknowledge that we wont most likely wont be seeing an update.

This post is to define what the acctual principles of a hybrid RDM and judging from the last 2 pages the topic was burried after about the third post when BBQ showed up.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

*Yawn*

Just what exactly did any of that have to do with this particular thread?

This forum has a tradition of completely derailing off topics and having huge discussions about unimportant things that seem to never get to an end.

[Lmnop]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

To all people vouching for the Red Mage meleeing in experience points party's I'd just like to say:

Get over it

These discussions have been going on for far too long in my opinion. Get to level 75, with all the merits you want, solo some Notorious Monsters, then come back and see if you still really care about Red Mage's meleeing in experience points party's.

You must have somehow missed the posts by BurningPanther and Renarudo. Just because you didn't even give a shit about your RDM -- you admittedly rushed the job to 75, barely exploring its possibilities -- doesn't mean no one else does, either. Frankly, you don't have a clue why most people took the job up.

---

I don't want to see RDMs become DDs. I'll leave magical front line DD to the BLUs.

I still think the ticket is something that puts them up frequently but for very short periods of time. Not full-time front line. And it has to help everyone. Anything self-centric = waste of time. We don't need DD#17.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

You must have somehow missed the posts by BurningPanther and Renarudo. Just because you didn't even give a shit about your RDM -- you admittedly rushed the job to 75, barely exploring its possibilities -- doesn't mean no one else does, either. Frankly, you don't have a clue why most people took the job up.

---

I don't want to see RDMs become DDs. I'll leave magical front line DD to the BLUs.

I still think the ticket is something that puts them up frequently but for very short periods of time. Not full-time front line. And it has to help everyone. Anything self-centric = waste of time. We don't need DD#17.

Woosh. I won't copy my previous posts.
And you're basically saying the same as I am too.

[Taskmage]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I'll be honest. OP was tl;dr, and when I saw the same people on each side of the battle line in the replies, tossing around the same invective and rhetoric as 6 months ago, I stopped reading and started scanning for substance.

I'd just like to chime in with a few things. Whether or not you feel that enhancing rdm's frontline capability is a needful thing or even a good idea, it is something that SE has expressed interest in doing. If we take it as a given that a rdm melee buff is something that's going to happen (which seems like a sure thing to me but we all know I've been wrong before), there's merit in discussion just how it should be done.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be pointless and destructive to nudge rdms toward the frontline by improving their damage output. There needs to be some other reason for us to draw a weapon that's beneficial enough to the party to be worth considering. When I made a similar suggestion awhile back, I had the great axe "-break" weaponskills in mind, but steps and sambas are good examples too.

I think the idea needs to be taken in a new direction though; there's already way to much stuff that does attack+ et al. Thinking back to that rosethorn WS that was previewed with WotG, what if we had a WS that gave a debuff effect similar to the Gallant's Roll buff? Maybe an enhanced version of Flat Blade could give a short amnesia effect that we could pop at 20% to ward off back to back Pecking Flurries and the like. These are some mechanics that haven't been done to death.

To make one specific reply, I have gotten rdm to 75 with merits, soloed, duoed, trioed some NMs with various methods, and tanked some HNM level stuff. I've done the pink mage thing, the mauve mage thing, the purple mage thing, you name it. It's far from true that I've done it all, but I think it's fair to say that I've explored just about every facet of the rdm job and yes, I do still care about getting to melee in parties. Not enough to lead a million rdm march on SE HQ, but enough to hypothesize, anyway.

Ninja edit: This article showed up a couple days ago. I think you can view it without a login... It's about the challenges of designing balanced hybrid character classes. It uses an economics model to explain why anyone with cure always gets pressured into main healing and similar situations, offering ways to design gameplay to avoid that. Interesting read.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I think SE's real motivation for even considering a update to RDM in terms of melee has much to do with the fact that SCH is now nipping at the heels of RDM. It was pretty clear the job wasn't done when it was released, nowhere near as complete as DNC was, at any rate.

Now SCH is rounded out and its been a common sight in manaburn and merit parties alike, able to keep up respectably with the damands of such PT and, whats more, its a very attractive endgame job now as well.

The problem with a RDM melee update is, however, parties still generally want one mage as a healer at merit level, so no matter how much you tweak RDM for melee, they're still gonna be asked to put the sword away and backline it.

Which brings me to a point I think I've almost successfully beaten to death:

Build your own PTs; Persue small PT setups if you want to melee.

Its not gonna happen in pick-ups so long as RDM stays as good a healer as it is. And I doubt SE is going to gimp RDM in that regard at this point, they.

BTW, we're still waiting for you to eat that Time Mage hat. Perhaps we should just settle on a cake modeled after Scholar's Mortarboard?

[Akashimo]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Which brings me to a point I think I've almost successfully beaten to death:

Build your own PTs; Persue small PT setups if you want to melee.

Its not gonna happen in pick-ups so long as RDM stays as good a healer as it is. And I doubt SE is going to gimp RDM in that regard at this point, they.

Screw meleeing now =P RDM/nin out pulling brds is where its at.
<.< >.>;
Anyways....
Yeah. Only real tweaking I can think of for making rdm a bit more specialized as a hybrid would to make some of the newer jobs abilities/spells/traits added to rdm at their lowest sub tier.
Just you know so they can't really get a benefit from subbing blu for lets say cocoon, when they would end up having it it at like the level you'd get it from /blu.
Which would also call for D to B- rank skills.

And no, not 4 shadows from ni subbed, that would officially break rdm >_>;
....wait, don't even add nin to that equation, rdm with native utsusemi + voke sub = plds and nins out of the job.

<.<;

BTW, we're still waiting for you to eat that Time Mage hat. Perhaps we should just settle on a cake modeled after Scholar's Mortarboard?

[MrMageo]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

well SE's exact consideration was. "We are considering spells to allow RDM to engage the enemy more often.

This does not reflect a garunteed buff to RDM itself, but potentially spells to allow RDM to do these things.

In all honesty, 3xDD, RDM,COR(BRD),SCH looks like the new gravey setup imo. RDM can pull mobs better than a BRD any day of the week. The new spells scholar has gained allows them to focus on main healing and support greater then before.

I dont consider scholar so much as nipping at our heals but more so as the "consideration" set down by SE. To be perfectly honest RDM needs an overhaul like I need a hole in the head. The job works great in what it was designed to do. Yes itcan melee, yes it can cast spells. But the fact the job cannot do any of these as well as the more natural jobs makes it a support job. When it comes to true support RDM takes the cake.

Once people stop looking at RDM melee as DD I think things will work a little better. Comparing it to a DD is like comparing apples and oranges. A RDM can't hit the damage level they do but a DD can't support like a RDM.

To whom ever put I'll leave maical frontline to the blues I like that. A job that can burn its MP in a minute then do nothing for 2-3 fights. Or a job that is completley MPself reliant, that can support the party.

The sad truth is, 90% of people look at RDM melee ass backwards. People from both camps. RDM melee is another form of support. You can argue all you like that support is hasting and refreshing. But what of WS's and SC's, they support the party as much as a haste. Ironically RDM can do both at the same time.

These wish lists and hopes drive me nuts. The ideas that come from them (although some are good) are redundant. RDM is as good at melee as it was designed to be. So you can't hit 1000+ weapon skills, or over 100 damage attacks. Well the DD's that do that can't cure for 400 HP or haste each other.

It is a natural trade off that comes with the job. A RDM can't hit 900+ teir 3's like a BLM but a BLM can't refresh or protect someone. A RDM can't throw down a Cure for 700 HP like a WHM but a WHM can't convert or nuke. In every aspect of RDM we trade something off that another job can do. However we also have one more thing in our bag of tricks that job can't do.

In all probability RDM is the most balanced job in this game. Good at many and masters of little. It holds true in every thing a RDM does in the game. It is why we need subjobs, If we were meant to be a WHM SE would have given us na and ra. If we were meant to be a BLM we would have -ga and teir 4. If we were meant to b a melee we would have Stat boosts for it.

Until both camps understand the core principles of RDM this debate and wishing will go on forever. RDM is a support job, not a main healer, no a nuker and not a melee. It is not specialized to do specific tasks (save enfeeble). It is a Job that has the ability to function in any situation you put it in. When you main heal you do not lose access to nukes. When you nuke you do not lose access to cures. When you melee you retain the ability to do both of those things.

Many arguements are made that a RDM should wear as much gear to support it in the backline. Which is why you see many complain about inventory space. Again RDM is not meant to be a specialized job it will always be beaten by something else in anything it does (again save enfeebling). Many people look at RDM as an everymage. Well some of us look at it as a Hybrid, meaning it can melee, and cast spells. Just look at our JSE and AF gears, they support both sides of the coin. If RDM was made to be a dedicated healer why did I get a Fencing Degen as my AF weapon. If I was to be solely a mage why do I have B in weapons and many other meleeable options at various levels.

In short RDM is a takeit how you want it job. Some people like BBQ are afraid of losing their RDM from meripos (meaning they may have to do some work on BRD and COR) Others like kitty just want to exploit its fast invites for merit points. Others like me want to work at helping people realize the truth of RDM melee, its pros and cons and how to do it smart. (of course we always get thrased around by the anti camp)

To the to camps.

Pro Melee

RDM dosent need fixng it is fine as is. What is needed is ambition and smarts to play this way. An understanding of limitations and boundries. The other camp is afraid of losing their RDM's, this should not be the case. You can still main heal a party as a melee. Don't let people cathc you up in the staff and gear canundrum because hey both do not hold any water.

Anti Melee

You are content on your ways as a RDM. You enjoy your healing role and that is fine. None of us are trying to tell you, you fail. The only people that fail are the ones who can't refresh/haste/dispel/enfeeble/cure/nuke properly. Their is a time and place for everything, and the fact is, preforming "Backline" duties can be easily done on the frontline especially considering the recet updates.