Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

[Taskmage]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

How often is the stone consumed? Like 1 stack an hr? or 1 stack/30mins? I mean an estimate

Well, at 236 delay, Justice Sword can swing 915 times in an hour if you're hacking at one thing nonstop. So if the effect procs 50%, you'd go through about 457 stones in an hour or 4.5 stacks. Perhaps a more useful figure would be 20-25 stones for a 3 minute fight. Cut that number roughly in half if you're dual wielding.

I don't have a Justice Sword (yet :3) so I can't confirm how close my estimate is, but based on the number from Callisto's friend it sounds about right.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

While this was actually targeted more for COR, I though't I'd link it anyway. COR uses Joyeue to a different end, though, we don't generally use it to do SwordWS or enspell, we use it to TP for Slug Shot

For purposes of this discussion, let us presume that you have Suppanomimi (sword skill+5, DW coefficient -0.05). Let us also presume the existence of a sword with the same DMG/delay rating as Joyeuse (D35/224).



If we are comparing single-wield vs. dual-wield Joyeuse, there are a few significant factors:



1) Dual-wielding reduces the frequency of a Joyeuse add'l attack proc. Normally, Joyeuse double attacks (2A) 50% of the time. That averages out to 1.5 attacks per round. When DWing Joy, that means that one hand averages 1 attack per round, and the other (Joy) averages 1.5 attacks per round. That's 2.5 attacks per DW round, or 1.25 attacks per hand.



2) DW2+Suppa gives an increase to attack speed, but reduces TP gain accordingly. The attack speed increase you get from DW2+Suppa will essentially counteract the faster attacking speed from a single-wield Joy, but it won't counteract the TP advantage.



In this scenario, it would seem apparent that single-wield Joy wins fairly decisively. However, in real-world application, most of the swords you'd pair with a Joy have better base damage/delay ratios, which might be enough to offset the increased TP gain from a single-wielded Joy. But this doesn't take into account SJs; if you are going to single-wield, you could be getting Accuracy Up from /RNG or Berserk from /WAR, so that's another advantage for single-wield.



Basically, in conclusion, I'd say: if you need shadows for protection and are forced to use /NIN anyway, single-wield vs. dual-wield is a tossup. If you don't need shadows, single-wield Joy should be significantly better (assuming you have a DD subjob).

[Callisto]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Heh, I had to pretty much play my RDM as if I was playing my COR to break my Expunger(Joyeuse for TP, then Sidewinder), it was pretty weird...made me want to level my COR again even more than I already do. At least I can simultaneously farm Bomb Ash for Firesand and work on my Dagger of Trials, so I'll be getting back to it at some point next week I hope.

[Armando]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

STOP. HAMMER TIME. Time to compare Mensur/Joy to Enhancing/Joy. I'll start with the Hurricane Wyverns because it's a best-case-scenario for Enhancing Sword; if E-sword loses to Mensur against T mobs then it'll be even worse off against EPs. Max level for Hurricane Wyverns is 78. Assuming Wyverns as a race have C-ranked VIT and AGI (very few mob races have anything past C in stats) then...

Lv.78 Hurricane Wyvern
VIT = 77
Defense = 297 (332 before Dia II)
Evasion = 309 (318 before Gravity)

RDM A (Callisto's equipment, Mensur/Joyeuse)
Attack = 333 (305 + 28)
Accuracy = 295 (282 + 13)
Enspell = 23

RDM B (Enhancing/Joy)
Attack = 349 (305 + 44)
Accuracy = 303 (282 + 21)
Enspell = 27

Now let's see how they do. Enspell damage will be added to the average hit, and in the case of Joyeuse also multiplied by 1.5 (due to multi-hit.) WS is Savage Blade, assumes Mensur's hidden effect is active during WS and that Savage Blade's hit rate is the same as your normal hit rate.

RDM A vs Enemy
Ave. Hits = 68, 85.5
Ave. Crits = 119, 144
Hit rate = 62%
Ave. WS = 170.5

RDM B vs Enemy
Ave.Hits = 70, 96.75
Ave.Crits = 114, 155.25
Hit rate = 66%
Ave. WS = 186.78

Amazingly, it looks like Enhancing Sword actually wins this is you don't get too many resists on your enspells. However, the result would be different when your Attack is high, since Enhancing Sword's extra stats are less of an improvement the harder you hit.

[Callisto]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Amazingly, it looks like Enhancing Sword actually wins this is you don't get too many resists on your enspells. However, the result would be different when your Attack is high, since Enhancing Sword's extra stats are less of an improvement the harder you hit.

That's awesome Armando, thanks for putting some math to that. You saved me 550k in swords I don't have to buy now lol, I owe you a beer.

Also, it means that my first choice of DW swords was the correct one, which provides further evidence of my awesomeness >.>

[massaranger]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

i dont know all i know is i use MEpee/Joy it works very nice when im farming i /thf and joy and Tariqah for Accruacy / But i really want to get Blau Dotch/Joy which is Probably the best Combo for overall dmg. and low 178 delay and its latent effect and Witht the superior WS Eviscreation I would think that would be the best for now im stuck with savage blade

[Callisto]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Lv.78 Hurricane Wyvern
VIT = 77
Defense = 297 (332 before Dia II)
Evasion = 309 (318 before Gravity)

Ok this has gotten me interested in all this math stuff to use for other applications(namely finding the right setup to max out my Vorpal Blade damage), and I could stand to dust my brain off a little until I can get back into school. I found the formulas I need to figure that stuff out on the wiki, but I was wondering where you got the mob's stats to do the calculations, b/c I tried searching for this info online and couldn't find it. Is there some specific resource you use for this info?

[Aksannyi]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

This has been bugging me for some time now.

What the fugg does it mean when you guys say "proc"? I have been trying and trying to figure out what this means, and I know it's some sort of formula-ish word that has to do with damage output or something like that in some kind of way, but I really need someone to explain to me what the hell it means.

Doing so would get you my eternal thanks and love.

[Callisto]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

This has been bugging me for some time now.

What the fugg does it mean when you guys say "proc"? I have been trying and trying to figure out what this means, and I know it's some sort of formula-ish word that has to do with damage output or something like that in some kind of way, but I really need someone to explain to me what the hell it means.

Doing so would get you my eternal thanks and love.

I believe the actual word it is shorthand for is 'process', but it means when an effect of a weapon, spell, or ability actually activates. i.e., you cast Paralyze on a mob. When the mob loses a turn to Paralyze, and you get the 'XXX is paralyzed.' message, Paralyze just "proc'd". Also would be when something Double Attack, Parrying, or Additional Effect from a weapon goes off.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Good god, it's so flipping obvious. Thank you.

[Mhurron]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

This has been bugging me for some time now.
What the fugg does it mean when you guys say "proc"?

Effect kicks in.

Joyeuse Double attack procs 50% of the time = Half the time, a Joyeuse will hit twice.

Paralyze proced once on that mob = You suck (You cast paralyze and only one action was paralyzed)

[Armando]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Callisto: I got the mob stats from Studio Gobli's formulas. Nagamaki from Blue Gartr's forums explained how they work and checked their accuracy in this thread. From the numbers Nagamaki obtained from Enkidus (Lv.77-80 Golems), the formulas are as accurate as it gets. I'll give you a quick run-down of the formulas.

Base Stats (VIT, AGI, etc.)

Race Ranking + Main Job Ranking + Support Job Ranking * Support Job Revision

Rank Value
A 5+(Lv-1)*0.50
B 4+(Lv-1)*0.45
C 4+(Lv-1)*0.40
D 3+(Lv-1)*0.35
E 3+(Lv-1)*0.30
F 2+(Lv-1)*0.25
G 2+(Lv-1)*0.20

Important note: The Sub Job part is NOT calculated by plugging in the half-capped level through the above formulas. You use the same level as the main job level and multiply that by 0.5 (which would be the "Support Job Revision" factor.) According to Nagamaki, Studio Gobli claims that for mobs below Lv.30 the Support Job Revision is 0 (i.e. sub job stats aren't used) but the exact level at which that changes can vary by area.

All mobs are WAR/WAR unless specified otherwise (crabs and if I remember correctly, beetles as well, are PLD/PLD mobs.) For Hurricane Wyverns, I assumed Wyverns have C-ranked VIT. I considered this pretty fair, as most normal mob families have D-ranked VIT; crabs, and golems have C-ranked evasion, and of the mob families Studio Gobli has found VIT rankings for, only Beetles had a B. Normal mob families don't seem to have any A-ranked stats. In any case, even if Hurricane Wyverns have B-ranked VIT the outcome wouldn't be too different. So, the calculations for a Lv.78 Hurricane Wyvern would be...

Race Ranking (C) = 4 + (78-1) * 0.40 = 34.8 -> 34
Main Job Ranking (WAR, D) = 3 + (78-1) * 0.35 = 29.95 -> 29
Support Job Ranking (WAR, D) = 29 * 0.5 = 14.5 -> 14

Hurricane Wyvern VIT = 34 + 29 + 14 = 77

I calculated AGI the same way, once again assuming Wyverns have C-ranked AGI. The AGI number is 85 instead of 77 because WARs have C-ranked AGI as opposed to D-ranked VIT.

Defense and Evasion

Defense: (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank) + 8 + VIT/2 + Job Traits) * Race Trait
Evasion: (f(Lv, Job Evasion Rank) + AGI/2 + Job Traits

Rank Lv Lv1-50 Lv51+
A 6+[(Lv-1)*3.0] 153+[(Lv-50)*5.0]?
B 5+[(Lv-1)*2.9] 147+[(Lv-50)*4.9]?
C 5+[(Lv-1)*2.8] 142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]
D 4+[(Lv-1)*2.7] 136+[(Lv-50)*4.7]?
E 4+[(Lv-1)*2.5] 126+[(Lv-50)*4.5]

Basically, calculate the base Defense or Evasion with the formulas above. Most mobs have C-ranked Defense, and WARs have C-ranked Evasion, so that number will be the same for most mobs. Then, for Defense, just add 8, VIT/2 (drop decimals as usual) and Job Traits (10 from Defense Bonus I in most cases) and you have the total. Race Trait is 1.0 for most mobs. WARs lack Evasion Bonus so for total Evasion you just have to add AGI/2 in most cases. In the case of Lv.78 Hurricane Wyverns...

142 + [(78-50)*4.8] = 276.4 -> 276
Defense: 276 + 8 + (77/2) + 10 = 332
Evasion: 276 + (85/2) = 318

And there you have it.

[Callisto]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Kickass, thanks a ton. I've been trying to figure out a way to max my Vorpal Blade for awhile, and am currently debating trading in my Ogre Gloves for Pally or Alky Bracelets, but wanted to play with the #'s a bit and see if it'd be worth the change. I'll save that business for another thread though.

Thanks again!

[Armando]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Well, with current Ramuh prices, quite honestly, screw Alkyoneus's Bracelets. You could use Pallas's but I wouldn't pay 100k for +3 STR and -1 Acc. Besides, I'd wager Tarasque Mitts are better (though I haven't run the numbers.) If you can pay for Alky's, invest in Woodsman Rings, Amemet +1 and an Assault Earring instead. Oh, and Lifebelt > Warwolf for most purposes. You could also save yourself some money by selling the Spectacles and going with Chivalrous Chain instead.

The key to good Vorpals is a good hit rate. Remember that the odds of landing all hits in any WS go down as you add more hits. With a 70% hit rate you only have a 24% chance to land all 4 hits. With 80% you have a 41% chance, and with 90% you have a 65% chance.

[Callisto]

Re: Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

Yeah, I've also been tossing over the whole DEX- part, which it appears for the hand slot it's nearly impossible as RDM to get a decent STR boost without losing DEX. I'm still fuzzy as to which would be the best to boost for Vorpal, between STR, Acc, or DEX for the crit rate boost(my DEX as Elvaan RDM is abysmal, I'm under the impression that trying to boost it would be a waste of resources.)

I have a Thunder Gorget, but the consensus that I seem to find on those is that it does not do a whole lot for multi-hit WS, so I'm probably going to start leaving that in the MH and just keeping the Spectacles when using Vorpal. I'm about 6400/8000 to a Chiv Chain, been a little lazy on Assault(plus my COR shares the spectacles) but I do plan on getting one.

I'm probably going to ditch the Ogre Gloves either way, the DEX- probably isn't helping the Vorpal cause. Switching out the hands slot works will within my macro setup, so I will try to find something better to replace them. Tarasque Mitts are probably the most viable option since I can't get a decent STR piece in that slot w/o losing DEX.

I'll look into the Life Belt option as well since they got cheap. I guess my only concern is as a RDM melee stats come at a premium, and I need to figure out how much STR is worth giving up for the sake of Acc/Atk.