Regarding /NIN in PT situations

[Patchinko]

This is to continue a tangent from another thread that was locked due to a reasonless flame war. Try to keep that discussion out of this topic, please.

In regards to subbing NIN versus BLM in PT situations in the late 30s/early 40s:

Patchinko, which Ninjutsu were you getting fully resisted on? It wouldn't say landed for 0 damage, but should give a message on full resist, like missing a paralyze (I presume).

I used the wrong term when I said "resisted" in my reponse. So you're right, the resistance debuff of the elemental ichi spells should still have taken effect. I would set up to use the appropriate elemental debuff just before a renkei, and then magic burst accordingly to get the maximum payback.

However, the damage boost from the debuff was so miniscule that it was outweighed by the overall boost in stats and abilities given by a BLM subjob. Elemental Seal and Conserve MP are both significant abilities/traits on their own, without even considering the major boost in MP and mage stats.

I wish I could offer you numbers for the early 40s to let you compare these two subs, but clearly I am far enough beyond that level that I can't easily do it. However, if you want to do the tests yourself, you can go ahead. I promise you that you'll find overall damage and performance increased if you sub BLM and adjust your playstyle accordingly, though.

All of that said the performance of this job combo in the 20s was very good. Dual weilding high quality wands is a significant stat boost, and the elemental resistance debuff from the Ninjutsu spells adds a significant amount to your magic bursts (since they're relatively lower damage at that point anyhow).

Basically, I would say enjoy your time as RDM/NIN in a PT situation while it lasts, but please switch to using BLM when you get to the point that it is no longer very effective. And level up WHM also so you can have access to the lovely -na line of spells when needed by the party.

Double Post Edited:
(By the way, I realize there's another "RDM/NIN" thread floating around, but that is about endgame RDM/NIN. This topic is in regards to using RDM/NIN in XP PT earlier in a RDM's career and doesn't really fit in that one.)

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

personally imho i would inv a bst/whm over a rdm/nin. i think that their abilitiies are godly for soloing but i just dont see the potential in helping the pt...

they cannot voke to make wonderful use of thier defensive capabilities

the rdm magic itself is a lil gimped with the non mage sub, also less mp

what would be the huge advantage in haveing a rdm/nin in a pt??

[Patchinko]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Well, if you read my post, I go over what the benefits of it are in earlier levels (20s and early 30s), and why it loses efficacy in the later 30s in a PT situation.

The specific benefits of /NIN in earlier levels is the ability to dual weild HQ wands for a high stat return and the elemental enfeebling ninjutsu spells, which can significantly increase the damage of low level elemental nukes.

However, in the late 30s and early 40s, a BLM sub becomes preferable because overall gear choices make the second HQ wand's return less impressive than the BLM subjob, and the ichi line of elemental enfeebles don't add enough damage to your nukes to make up for the benefits of a BLM subjob.

[Jei]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

At that level, unless you find a very mage-like mentality Rdm tho I think 99% of random Rdm/Nin you invite will be weilding 2 swords instead... and start whacking away.

However I can see where you're coming from. At lower levels, it's either you need ~na spells from Whm, or you don't (poisona can be VERY helpful at early levels). When you don't need ~na spells, /nin with 2 HQ wands may even give more INT than /Blm. But then you will need more MP rings too such as astral rings so there's about 2-4 INT to be lost in those slots. Except Taru, other races have very low MP pool as low level Rdm.

[Armando]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Ok, I'm not going to go about defending RDM/NIN in parties, but I would like to make something clear.

However, the damage boost from the debuff was so miniscule that it was outweighed by the overall boost in stats and abilities given by a BLM subjob. Elemental Seal and Conserve MP are both significant abilities/traits on their own, without even considering the major boost in MP and mage stats.

Lowering the mob's resistance won't increase the potency of the skillchain or the MB. If you were keeping an eye out for an increase in damage, then of course you didn't find anything. Lowering the mob's resistance simply decreases the chances of the mob resisting the Skillchain and MB damage. Both result in an increase in average damage, but there's still a big difference. Skillchains do get resisted a lot.

[Patchinko]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Good clarification. Thanks.

By they way, don't forget that when subbing BLM, one can wear a Wizard's earring while nuking. It's a very nice item for when casting elemental spells.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

From the stat calculator stuff I posed, I won't be gaining that much INT or MND at Lv.32 with dual Solid Wands, and the amount of MP I'd lose is about one or two free (read: "optional") nukes

I'm just very peeved when a monster resists paralyze--or worse, Gravity, and so was looking for ways to reduce that. Dual Wield spoons doesn't seem to be the answer, but Armando's thread gave me hope for RDM/NIN--whenever I'm not the main healer. lol.

Once I hit Lv.40, it seems like Conserve MP will make /BLM the subjob of choice whenever I'm not The Healer. Before that, /NIN may have situational uses, if I bother to buy another Solid Wand.

Given that I'm static with a BRD (and a RNG), it's very likely /WHM will stay my primary subjob, but for now we do invite WHM's when we find one. (Tanks and WHM's are rare at the hours we play.) And, because I LOVE Ballad, I don't really want to leave the backline to go melee anything. (Sword, shield, evasion, parrying all capped form other jobs for RDM30 anyway.) Stuff we've been fighting lately (Fish, Sahgin, Goblin, mandies) all have AoE's I don't want to get hit with as well.

Instead of /NIN, I'll probably end up just farming for gils to buy better INT and MND rings (the +1 lv.10 ones) instead, since carrying around 6 more Ninjutsu tools, one extra wand, and one more sword sounds like a nightmare. And, maybe I can work with my bard friend about coordinating the use of her threnody and my debuffs. (I can make her add /t Itazura <Wind Threnody> <Just used it> in her macro. Muhahahaha~)

Many thanks to Armando, Patchinko, Taskmage, Icemage, and others for their informative posts on this and the previous thread.

[Ghostraven]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

element ninjitsu tools, blink tools, AND standard mnd/int gear for equip swaps? will you have room for anything that drops? :sweat


seriously though, concentrate on the other 34456578 things a rdm has to do.....
/blm -/whm 4tw

[Armando]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

I'm just very peeved when a monster resists paralyze--or worse, Gravity, and so was looking for ways to reduce that. Dual Wield spoons doesn't seem to be the answer, but Armando's thread gave me hope for RDM/NIN--whenever I'm not the main healer. lol.

With Ninjutsu being 4 second casts, and there being that annoying ~2 second delay between spells, I really can't see you casting a Ninjutsu before each enfeeble. I haven't tried it, but you may just want to limit yourself to enfeebles with long recasts, or critical circumstances (dangerous unsleepable/hard-to-sleep link aggroed, need to make that Bind count.)

Also...
Fairly useless and uninfluential pro to RDM/NIN: Subtle Blow reduces the TP given to mobs by spells as well.

[Atma]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Between keeping everyone refreshed, debuffing the monster, and dispelling important buffs, your time for anything else will be very limited.:

Pre-Convert is a very meh, whatever range in terms of RDM melee. At that level you don't really have a defined group role so much, because you're kind of backup everything.

Once you get refresh/convert though, you have a role. You are now the party's lifeblood. You are the one who keeps the party pulling constantly. You are now, sadly, basically, destined for skill up parties

Here is what should happen when you're in a party at 41+ and even thinking about pulling out that sword:

"/p Does anyone object to my meleeing the monster to cap sword skill as long as it doesn't interfere with refreshing and debuffing duties?"

If people say they don't mind, then melee till sword is capped then go sit down.

If anyone, and I mean anyone (even the white mage) objects, then you do not melee.

The important thing to note about rdm meleeing is that, depending on the monster, you are slowing down XP. For every hit you get (protip: this won't be many at 50+, count on 30-35% accuracy), you're giving the monster TP which just lets it feather tickle, scissors guard, pecking frenzy, or use some other nasty move on the poor sucker who is tanking. Most don't like that.

You are not adding anything signifigant. Trust me, I've put on like 10 million gil worth of borrowed melee gear and tried it. You might parse as high as a DRG wyvern* :/

*Poetic License

[qaitakalnin]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Ok as far as I have ever known, rdm/nin is 1 very situational and 2 not really that hot for pts, i mean once you get gravity arent we casting so many spells that we would swing once or twice a fight anyway? I use /nin when i solo and for a couple of bcnm's, i have seen it used in some HNM fights by other, much more experianced rdms, but why, even early on, encourge this?


That being said, i dont pay for the game or monthly fee of anyone else, so /nin if you want for as long as you want, just be willing to either get asked to change sub jobs, or not get pt invites on a regular/if at all basis.

[Patchinko]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Guys, I know you're trying to help, but please read the thread before replying.

It has nothing to do with meleeing the mob.

I clearly said multiple times that it's not superior to /BLM and am going over the pros and cons of /NIN early in the game.

I specifically said multiple times that it's not useful in a PT at all past the early 30s.

I realize these can be issues for people who aren't thinking. Perhaps there are RDM/NIN running around trying to get PT so they can melee the mob. But that's not what this thread is about.

[Atma]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Guys, I know you're trying to help, but please read the thread before replying.

It has nothing to do with meleeing the mob.

I clearly said multiple times that it's not superior to /BLM and am going over the pros and cons of /NIN early in the game.

I specifically said multiple times that it's not useful in a PT at all past the early 30s.

I realize these can be issues for people who aren't thinking. Perhaps there are RDM/NIN running around trying to get PT so they can melee the mob. But that's not what this thread is about.

Then I feel to see what the real point is. Every GOOD party is probably going to have a ninja tanking anyway, so the need for you to use elemental ninjitsu or debuff jujitsu is nil, and the bonuses from dual wielding two clubs simply aren't necessary at that level, as you shouldn't have much in the way of issues with resists, either.

[massaranger]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

for a long time till bout lv 45 i was rdm/nin till i figured out naturaly i was not dealing any dmg melee but i still weilded sword and melee till about lv 63 and then i decided that was enogh and started pulling back and macroing every possible peice of equipment to change with every spell. I still rdm/nin for kill up perpouses only i might solo mobs for exp as rdm/nin but only after i get utsesumi ni. but till then sleep nuking mob works great.

[Armando]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Then I feel to see what the real point is. Every GOOD party is probably going to have a ninja tanking anyway, so the need for you to use elemental ninjitsu or debuff jujitsu is nil, and the bonuses from dual wielding two clubs simply aren't necessary at that level, as you shouldn't have much in the way of issues with resists, either.

You'd be amazed how ridiculously hard it is to get a NIN to use ichi elemental debuffs before skillchains. Everyone says "it's not going to make a difference," or "it doesn't matter at this level." Moreover, most NINs only carry Tsurara at those levels since it's the cheapest tool, and only cast it at the beginning of fights for skill-ups. /NIN melees don't carry elemental tools at all.