NIN sub and solo play...

[Petrifyus]

Hello and merry Christmas everyone!

I haven't posted on these boards in a looong time but i'm now a lvl 54 RDM/BLM on Odin and i have some questions about the Ninja sub...

People say it is fantastic for playing solo, but does this mean you just kick arse compared to most jobs or does it mean you can actually solo exp like a Beastmaster?
I'm going to lvl Ninja just for a fun sub, but being able to make some decent exp while solo aswell would be a nice bonus.

Any Ninja sub soloers out there that can provide me with some info or advice?

Cheers and /salute to all you Red Mages

[Apple Pie]

does it mean you can actually solo exp like a Beastmaster?

Well, I'm afraid not. We cannot get as much XP as BST can.

First of all, the advantage of subbing NIN I think of is,

1) Allow us to have offensive gears instead of defensive gears.
2) Allow us to eat attack+ foods instead of defence+ foods.

Therefore, it is true that it's going to be much easier for us to solo DC, EM and T mobs with NIN sub but we apparently lack the firepower.

Usually in XP PT, we're able to get 200+ XP from IT mobs in 60 seconds or so. On the other hand, we're only able to get 100 - 200 XP in some minutes. As for BST, they're not soloing but duoing with their pets. In a sense, they have twice as much firepower as we have. They're able to chain 3 - 4 T mobs as a result.

In conclusion, subbing NIN is basically,

1) For easier soloing
2) For some NMs
3) For skill-up weapons

[magnius]

Bst is really the only job that can really effectively solo lvl. I have heard that any job can really sub Bst and solo the same way but I have yet to try this since my Bst is lvl 1. I think its pretty obvious that even if you did do that it wouldn't be as good since you lose out on a lot of things without Bst main.

As for ninja sub, I love it. It is my favorite sub for solo because it lets you take down mobs that would normally be quite a challenge, especially for other jobs, fairly easily. While you can stay alive much easier with ninja sub, it also takes you a lot longer then if you sub Drk or something like that.

For example, the other day I was skilling up sword and dagger solo in kuftal tunnel on Tough robber crabs. This is my main use for my ninja sub since I couldn't care less how long it takes to kill them because I'm just looking for skill. So the skilling was going nice and easy when the next crab that poped was VT high evasion and defense. So I thought I would just go around but there really wasn't any way to do that. Now I certainly wasn't going to let a stupid crab scare me away so I decided to just take it.

It ended up being just as easy as the Toughs just with a lot more HP and Def. and I got 260 exp off it without chain. While this was a nice amount of exp off one mob, it took me around 15 minutes to kill it so it certainly wouldn't be wise to try to level off them. :sweat:

[Petrifyus]

Thanks for the info guys

[Gman]

Re: BST

I've been playing as BST for a while now, so I can comment.

First for Apple Pie's comment on "duoing" instead of soloing, while this is true, we still are able to release pet before the fight ends, thus claiming all the exp for ourselves. It would be like duoing with a RDM and a DRK, then booting the DRK from pt when mob was almost dead Anyway, yes, the only reason BST can "solo" is because it has the help of very strong pets. How strong? As a level 51 BST, an Even Match Exoray can hit me for 60-75 DMG, and I can only hit it for 50-60 with Scythe (delay 480) or 30-40 with Axe (delay 276)... hmm, whos gonna win if I dont have a pet with 2.5k HP tanking for me?

The reason RDM cant solo as well as BST is only because of one thing... inability to have a tank. Give RDM a 3000 HP tank, and you can kill anything a BST can.

In fact this has been discussed in greater detail on the BST forums. People have said that 70 RDM/ 35 BST is actually as good or better than a 70 BST for solo. Trick is to have a light staff or Apollo staff. These tremendously increase chance of charm success. A 70 RDM with an Apollo staff can charm almost as well as a BST, and are able to release pets as well.

Another thing that has been discussed is the level of your BST compared to the level of the mobs you are trying to charm. Even if you are subbing BST, apparently the main level of your BST is what determines the con of the mobs. Lets say you have me (65rdm/51bst) try to charm a Soldier Crawler (lvl 47-49) and you have a 65rdm/10bst try to charm a soldier crawler, chances are the one with the 10 bst sub would fail multiple times before successfully charming, but I would succeed first try. *this is theory, but many experiements have shown it to be at least partially true. Basically a lvl 70 RDM/ 70 BST is gonna charm anything a BST can, no problem, especially with Light/Apollo.

Hope this rambling helped ^^

[Deathguise]

Originally posted by Gman

The reason RDM cant solo as well as BST is only because of one thing... inability to have a tank. Give RDM a 3000 HP tank, and you can kill anything a BST can.

I'm by no means an expert on this, but I thought it was because we couldn't do enough damage? We have a lot of protective spells available to us to help limit damage.

[SharMarali]

The RDM/NIN solo combination is for fun, efficiency when hunting something specific, soloing rather high level things, etc. It's not for day-to-day experience gaining.

Examples of what I'm referring to:

As a 75RDM/37NIN, I have soloed the shadowlord. Unfortunately, since I play on PS2, I do not have video of this, although many many people have asked me about it.

I have soloed Steelface Baldarich (spelling?)

I have soloed an antican NM whose name escapes me, but he drops a level 60 rare/ex axe called Tungi for WAR, DRK, RNG, and BST. I soloed him about a dozen times because I really wanted that axe for my WAR. Then I gave up leveling WAR about a week later. Live and learn I guess...

I have soloed numerous, numerous coffer keys in a variety of areas, including but not limited to: Crawler's nest, sea serpent grotto, toraimorai, kuftal, etc etc.

I have NOT soloed any normal monsters harder than �度 (decent challenge). Although I am fairly confident that I could take on something a bit rougher, I don't find it to be worth the risk on a monster that doesn't drop anything of particular value anyway.

The reasons why RDM/NIN make such a great combination for soloing are simple. A RDM/NIN's defenses are very, very difficult to get through. You don't even need to be proficient at recasting utsusemi like you do with a blink tank job. If you have stoneskin up, your casting of utsusemi won't get interrupted while the monster hits you for zero. This means we can keep going for a very, very long time. But remember, we're still a mage class, and we're still rather weak fighters. It takes awhile to kill anything, even with dual wielding and double en-magic. The bottom line is, RDM/NIN makes a great solo class because we outlast the monster, not because we kill so efficiently.

I recommend, for those wanting to give it a shot, fighting monsters that hit slowly, are fairly weak in damage they deal out, and don't do anything that silences. If they buff themselves, that's not a problem since we have dispel. If they heal themselves, that's bad, because keeping silence up constantly can be trying at times while you're trying to keep 10 buffs on yourself. Ideal targets for RDM/NIN solo are crabs, crawlers, beetles, and certain types of beastmen. Exceptionally bad targets are leeches (they hit too fast, they drain MP and TP), WHM, MNK, or PLD type beastmen, raptors, etc.

By the way, just as a side note, my subjobs for joining a level up PT or an alliance to fight anything that requires effort are BLM, WHM, and SMN.

[Gman]

Originally posted by Deathguise
I'm by no means an expert on this, but I thought it was because we couldn't do enough damage? We have a lot of protective spells available to us to help limit damage.

That's certainly part of it, but really, a BST itself doesnt outdamage a RDM by a whole lot. 1H Axe isnt overly strong, and I miss a lot, even with +26 accuracy at level 51 (+10 life belt, +10 viking axe, +3 balance buckler, +3 battle gloves) Its the pet that does all the damage.

A BST has a pet which is usually Even Match beating on the mob, and doing much more damage than the bst could dream of doing, while also acting as a tank. If a RDM had a pet to hold hate while it wailed on the mob, it would certainly win easily as well. These mobs have 3 times the HP we have, so they can stand in there taking a beating much longer.

If a 75 RDM with 900 HP solos a Steelshell, the RDM would go down in ~18 hits @ 50 dmg per hit. (without buffs) While a RDM will hit the Steelshell for lets say an average of 35 per hit +18 en-damage so 53 per hit. It would take at least 100-150 swings to drop that crab, compared to its 18 to drop you.

[Deathguise]

I guess I forgot that the charmed beast doesn't just sit there and provoke and use flash and heal itself and hit for like 10 damage. ^^

[Petrifyus]

Yesterday i gave the RDM/NIN solo combo a try, just to work out how it works. I went to Fei-yin and fought easy prey Shadows and Ore Golems for the chest key (so i could sell the Teleport-Vahzl scroll). I'm pretty confident that without my NIN sub these guys would have been able to take me down :/

Anyway, what i did was put all my buffs on before the battle, most importantly Phalanx, Stoneskin and Utsesemi. I managed to get along fine by casting Utsesemi when stoneskin ran out, and using the blink time to recast stoneskin... Is this what most people do? Because this was my first attempt and it seemed to work ok.

Anyone got some general hints for smooth soloing?

[Zempten]

Well depending on mob difficulty for me

A) When mobs don't hit that hard just let Stoneskin take all damage, you seriously don't get interrupted that much when casting it. If you do Aquaviel works. If that doesn't work then I use Utsusemi to help recast Stoneskin. With convert timed right you will be able to fight non stop

B) Mob just hits way the hell too hard, then Utsusemi becomes your base defense where Stoneskin is use to help recast Utsusemi.

[WishMaster3K]

Yeah, I'm kinda upset i leveled so fast last week, i totally outclassed my NIN sub. In actuallity, i wouldnt even see much of a difference until lvl 50 when i'd be able to sub for DWII, so i suppose even gimping 16 isnt bad for skilling up against Even or low level T.

But in actual usage, i found that the true purpose of subbing NIN was to give us more weapons. Not in the sense of DW, but in the sense that Utsusemi damn near doubles or may even triple our defenses. It is already possibly to (non nuke)solo IT++ w/o Blink, so using it makes us that more effective.

On another note, I feel that using DW isnt worth it till +50, and maybe not even so then. As stated above, I use /NIN for Utsusemi. In this case, it doesnt matter what my Ninjutsu is at since I'm not using gimped sub-nin enfeebles. I've also heard that a higher Ninjutsu level give a percentage of resistance to Spell interruption. Any word on that?

[Gladesinger]

Nin sub doesnt get particular good before lvl74, and then only as a special purpose sub.

Its a toy for doing amusing things against a limited set of opponents.

In terms of solo efficiency /blm rather easily edges /nin out in most cases.

Gravity, bind and sleep combined with the old blink & stoneskin, gives a significant higher level of security and protecting than utsu on the vast majority of opponents.

Anyways,

IT/VT Light elementals in Sky, second island to the left, camp at the broken bridge, is probably the best solo exp to be had for rdms. Somewhere between 1k - 1,5k exp pr hr depending on your gear riskfree, use /blm.

[Apple Pie]

I feel that using DW isnt worth it till +50, and maybe not even so then.

It's not worth even after you get DW2 at RDM50+/NIN25+ unless one of weapons has some +accuracy, +attack, +stats or additional effect.

Compare RDM/NIN with dual wielding Gold Sword (Delay 240) to RDM/WAR in terms of the number of attacks per minute:

When dual wielding it, the delay between swings is
(240 + 240) * 0.85 = 408 frames

The number of attacks per minute is
3,600 / 408 = 8.8235... = 8 double attacks = 16

What about RDM/WAR?

The number of attacks per minute is
3,600 / 240 = 15

Because Double Attack (JA) kicks on every 8 - 11 swings (9 - 12%), RDM/WAR is able to attack 15 + 1 = 16 times per minute, which is eventually the same as RDM/NIN.

What about TP?

Single Gold Sword:
(240 - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5 = 6.4% per hit

Dual Gold Sword:
((408 / 2) - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5 = 5.5% for each hand (11.0% for double hit).

While RDM/NIN stores 5.5 * 16 = 88% TP in a minute, RDM/WAR does 102.4% TP.

I would say DW isn't worth till you get Suppanomimi at LV72.

DW is again useful when one of weapons has some +accuracy, +attack or +stats because they are applied to both weapons. When you have R.G.F and W.W.A for example, both of them get +6 accuracy and +14 attack as a result. If you have dual R.G.F, this means you have two weapons with +12 accuracy. That's why dual wielding Enhancing Sword and Joyeuse is considered to be the strongest combo.

In addition, DW enhances any multi-hit WS by adding an extra hit. Fast Blade is going to be 3-hit WS with DW and you'll get 5.5 + 1.0 + 5.5 = 12.0% TP after all 3 hits land when dual wielding Gold Sword.

Anyway, Utsusemi is the biggest reason we choose /NIN. Unlike other /NINs, we have both Phalanx and Stoneskin to back it up.

[Sepukku]

I tanked and pretty much soloed the DRK AF-Weapon NM in Giddeus last night as RDM/NIN. Me and the 42-DRK who needed it both built 300-TP. (By the way, this was my first fight with my brand new Wise Wizard Anelace ^^, Dual wielded alongside my Crimson Blade). I buffed myself with:
Meat Mithakabob
Phalanax
Stoneskin
Shell
Protect-2
Utususemi: Ichi
Haste
Enthunder

DRK friend pops it. I land silence and dont put in dia/bio incase he needs slept. I get lucky and get a critical on my first pair of swings which gave me a big hate advantage over the DRK. 105+12 and 70+12 outdoes his one 70-damage swing big time. Fast Blade (334) -> Shadow Of Death(or maybe it was the Nightmare Scythe WS? i forget which)(200 damage) ->Fragmentation(Is the right name for the Water SC?) (100)-> Water 2 (196 dmg)-> DRK's Water (0 damage, lol). This puts him down pretty good put not even past half way. The DRK uses Sneak Attack with a regular melee then disengages to gaurd for links (Stupid Yag Priests could cure-3/protect-2 the NM). Me and him, here we go. He uses Manafont and begins Chain-nuking. I get pretty messed up here but because hes casting and not much meleeing I easily Cure-4 myself and reapply stoneskin. Pretty much boring after that, as I just melee him for awhile and land 2 Fast Blades and then he eventually dies. /NIN wasnt even there much for helping me, just to look cool with two swords as a Taru.