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  • Stat chart: Subbing WHM vs BLM vs SUM

    Some data I put together to try to figure out whether WHM or BLM is a better sub for RDMs.

    Here's a table of the spells that become available to you by subbing each job, and when you get them:[CODE]Black Mage RDM/SUB White Mage
    ------------------------------------------
    10 / 5 Barstonra
    10 / 5 Banish
    12 / 6 Poisona
    14 / 7 Barsleepra
    14 / 7 Protectra
    18 / 9 Barwatera
    18 / 9 Paralyna
    20 / 10 Barpoisonra
    Drain 24 / 12 Barparalyzra
    26 / 13 Baraera
    28 / 14 Blindna
    Stonega 30 / 15 Banishga
    Shock 32 / 16 Curaga
    Warp 34 / 17 Shellra
    34 / 17 Barfira
    Rasp 36 / 18 Barblindra
    Waterga 38 / 19 Silena
    Choke 40 / 20
    42 / 21 Barblizzara
    Frost 44 / 22
    Aeroga 46 / 23 Barsilencera
    Burn 48 / 24
    Poisonga 48 / 24
    Aspir 50 / 25 BaThundera
    Tractor 50 / 25
    Drown 54 / 27 Protectra II
    Firega 56 / 28
    Escape 58 / 29 Cursena
    60 / 30 Banish II
    62 / 31 Curaga II
    Blizzaga 64 / 32 Erase
    66 / 33 ReRaise
    68 / 34 Viruna
    Thunderga 72 / 36 Teleport-Dem
    72 / 36 Teleport-Holla
    72 / 36 Teleport-Mea
    74 / 37 Shellra II[/CODE]Based only on extra spells, I'd say WHM is better. Subbing BLM gets you a few utility spells and AoE nukes, but subbing WHM gets you status heals and the more important AoE cures and buffs. Kickbacks for subbing WHM also start earlier, with Poisona at 12 and Protect at 14.

    This table shows the stat bonuses from subbing each job vs a RDM with no sub. These are the same for any race.[CODE]Black Mage White Mage Summoner
    ---------------- LVL 1 -------------------
    + 5 HP + 6 HP + 5 HP
    + 7 MP + 6 MP + 8 MP
    + 1 STR + 1 STR + 1 STR
    + 2 DEX + 1 DEX + 1 DEX
    + 1 VIT + 1 VIT + 1 VIT
    + 2 AGI + 1 AGI + 1 AGI
    + 2 INT + 1 INT + 2 INT
    + 1 MND + 2 MND + 2 MND
    + 1 CHR + 2 CHR + 2 CHR
    ---------------- LVL18 -------------------
    + 21 HP + 26 HP + 17 HP
    + 27 MP + 22 MP + 32 MP
    + 2 STR + 2 STR + 2 STR
    + 3 DEX + 2 DEX + 2 DEX
    + 2 VIT + 2 VIT + 2 VIT
    + 3 AGI + 2 AGI + 3 AGI
    + 4 INT + 2 INT + 4 INT
    + 2 MND + 4 MND + 4 MND
    + 2 CHR + 3 CHR + 4 CHR
    ---------------- LVL30 -------------------
    + 36 HP + 44 HP + 28 HP
    + 42 MP + 34 MP + 60 MP
    + 2 STR + 3 STR + 2 STR
    + 4 DEX + 2 DEX + 3 DEX
    + 2 VIT + 3 VIT + 2 VIT
    + 4 AGI + 3 AGI + 3 AGI
    + 6 INT + 3 INT + 5 INT
    + 3 MND + 6 MND + 5 MND
    + 3 CHR + 4 CHR + 5 CHR
    ---------------- LVL45 -------------------
    + 56 HP + 65 HP + 42 HP
    + 59 MP + 48 MP + 81 MP
    + 3 STR + 5 STR + 3 STR
    + 6 DEX + 3 DEX + 4 DEX
    + 3 VIT + 5 VIT + 3 VIT
    + 6 AGI + 4 AGI + 5 AGI
    + 7 INT + 4 INT + 6 INT
    + 4 MND + 7 MND + 6 MND
    + 5 CHR + 6 CHR + 6 CHR
    ---------------- LVL60 -------------------
    + 73 HP + 89 HP + 58 HP
    + 79 MP + 64 MP +115 MP
    + 4 STR + 6 STR + 4 STR
    + 7 DEX + 4 DEX + 5 DEX
    + 4 VIT + 6 VIT + 4 VIT
    + 7 AGI + 5 AGI + 6 AGI
    + 9 INT + 5 INT + 8 INT
    + 5 MND + 9 MND + 8 MND
    + 6 CHR + 7 CHR + 8 CHR
    ---------------- LVL75 -------------------
    + 91 HP +110 HP + 72 HP
    + 97 MP + 78 MP +136 MP
    + 5 STR + 7 STR + 5 STR
    + 9 DEX + 5 DEX + 6 DEX
    + 5 VIT + 7 VIT + 5 VIT
    + 9 AGI + 6 AGI + 7 AGI
    + 11 INT + 6 INT + 10 INT
    + 6 MND + 11 MND + 10 MND
    + 7 CHR + 9 CHR + 10 CHR[/CODE]In the endgame, WHM favors more HP over more MP, and higher STR, VIT, and MND over more INT. At that level, MP and INT are far more important that HP, STR, VIT, and MND, so BLM wins. For some reason, WHM gives worse stat bonuses from levels 1-19, when you'll be doing the most melee, so the WHM leanings toward the important melee stats don't even help you then. For stat bonuses, BLM is the better sub.

    Finally the Job Traits table:[CODE]LVL Black Mage White Mage Summoner
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    20/10 Magic Attack Bonus Magic Defense Bonus Max MP Boost
    30/15 Clear Mind
    40/20 Conserve MP Clear Mind Resist Slow
    50/25 Auto Regen Auto Refresh
    60/30 Magic Attack Bonus Magic Defense Bonus Max MP Boost[/CODE]RDMs already get Magic Attack Bonus 1&2 , Magic Defense Bonus 1&2, and Clear Mind, so the choice is down to Conserve MP (BLM) and Auto Regen (WHM). Conserve MP is obviously better, since if you're doing your job right you'll be casting spells far more often than taking hits.

    Unfortunately, after doing that research I find that one isn't clearly better than the other. Personally, I'm going to use WHM, since I think the extra WHM spells are worth the loss of 19 MP, 5 INT, and Conserve MP in the long run.
    Last edited by Taskmage; 12-28-2005, 02:48 PM.
    lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

  • #2
    I find that one isn't clearly better than the other.
    Exactly. It really depends on where we go, what we hunt, and how rest of our PT members are like.

    Therefore, I think we should level both BLM and WHM to LV37 to be more flexible.

    Comment


    • #3
      I like RDM to sub WHM in places where we need status cures ie fighting undead monsters or monsters that do a lot of AE's. RDM Curaga can be a downtime saver for sure. I don't really think the utility spells of a BLM add much to a party - RDM with BLM sub don't nuke tons better, and I've seen Elemental Seal + Silence/Sleep been put to good use, but thats about it. However the MP conservation is important and Aspir is a very good spell - not that RDM tend to have MP issues compared well, anyone. All the good RDM I know manage their MP well and use Convert intelligently to improve the efficiency of the party, and thats regardless of a BLM sub (the more MP efficient sub).

      At higher levels I could see WHM being slightly more useful when they can use Erase, frees up the white mage in the party from having to cure the annoying status stuff that sucks a lot at high levels like slow, ATK down etc. It probably does depend what your party is fighting to get the most out of either sub job. If you are just chaining crabs or crawlers for example, most of the WHM utility spells aren't super useful.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow! Great post, was looking for some info on /blm and /whm sub. That made me really keep whm as subjob. Btw, just curious, do you have any info on /smn ? I know i've read/heard obout summoner's isn't worth it as a sub-job but would like to see the stats.
        Thanks

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        • #5
          It again depends on what you hunt and how your PT is configured but subbing SMN is useful if your RDM is already at LV50 or higher and you at least level your SMN to LV25 (Job Trait: Auto-Refresh).

          The reason you wanna take RDM/SMN may be

          - You already have BLM/WHM and WHM/BLM in your PT
          -- Have enough people to cast Ba-, Curaga, Erase, and -na spells
          -- Do not plan to go to the dungeon (no need for Eacape)

          - You have 4 or more people to provide with refresh

          Comment


          • #6
            Rather than take up more space, I spliced the SUM info into my original tables. Since SUMs don't get spells the same way, obviously I skipped that part.

            SUM really surprised me with stat bonuses. SUM beats both WHM and BLM for MP even before the Max MP Boost job traits. The INT and MND bonuses for a SUM are almost as high as the best bonus that BLM or WHM would give to either. The job traits for a SUM are also a lot better, since they're not redundant with the job traits that a RDM already gets.

            @ Apple Pie: I'm sure you're right that it's better to keep both jobs up to date for versatility, but personally I only have so much time to dedicate to playing the game, so I have to choose.
            lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

            Comment


            • #7
              Excellent information Well done. /clap

              I personally go with BLM sub (WHM LV1).

              You earned yourself a stick
              RDM 75, BLM 73, WHM 42, SMN 41, RNG 40, NIN 37, DRK 37, THF 25, WAR 20

              Comment


              • #8
                I think it would depend more on your party config, if there's no WHM, /WHM would be better, for the na spells, barstatusna spells are hardly useful, and you won't be using Protectra and Shellra since it would be better to cast your highest level Protect on the tank and the melees. /BLM when there's no BLM for Rasp Frost Drown, - Dex - Agi - Str, as much as many overlook these, I feel that they're very useful, especially when your RNGs are missing sidewinders, Chainspell + Escape is good for sticky situations. There was one incident when my puller came back with a link, I (WHM/BLM) casted escape at where the frontlines are, apparently, the RDM was AFK without notice, and we escaped without him. >.> (I made my macro spam |Gather together| Casting |Escape| thrice with a call in every line) And when the RDM came back like 2 seconds after I'm finished casting, he 2 hred and escape.
                WHM 75 | BLM 37 | RDM 63 | WAR 75 | MNK 44 | NIN 37 | RNG 20
                Windurst Rank 10 | Bastok Rank 10 | Sandoria Rank 3
                No more permanent stats on "In areas outside own nation's control" items.
                Combat Caster's Boomberang +1 | Master Caster's Bracelets
                Sandoria is gay.

                I'm a warrior and I kill stuff! RAWR!


                ph34r the Gigant Axe rush.



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                • #9
                  Ooh thanks for the info about /smn maybe i'll try that out for fun some day when i'm lvl 60+. Well my rdm is lvl 43/20whm and jsut got whm to lvl 20 tonight and was wondering is the "clear mind" trait for rdm and whm subbed are stacked?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Whoops! Minor correction to make. The +MP stats I posted for SMN do include the Max MP Boost job traits.

                    Thanks for the stick.
                    lagolakshmi on Guildwork :: Lago Aletheia on Lodestone

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      rdm66/whm33 has Erase I believe.

                      Excellent table. Good info.
                      Relic Stage 5: Excalibur Completed.
                      RDM75 / PLD73

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I like Rdm/Whm much more than Blm for low level up to around 50/25. Low level, the ~na spells are really great to have while /blm doesn't really giving anything much.

                        /15whm for goddess seal, works so good with convert.

                        /25Blm for MP conserve and frost... just those 2 are really helpful already :D

                        /29blm for escape... is just so nice.

                        /31whm for erase is also nice ^^b if you have that spell.
                        There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
                        but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence
                        transform a yellow spot into the sun.

                        - Pablo Picasso

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                        • #13
                          This is wonderful :O. I think it all comes down to a matter of preference now, and there's no real "White Mage/Black Mage is way better" arguement that a few of my friends tend to make. Me, personally.. I'm going with BLM, I don't have a lot of time to level both WHM and BLM up. But I like BLM, and if a RDM/BLM(me) and a RDM/WHM team up.. it can be great for starting a group ^^.


                          Corwynn's Journal

                          Red Mage for life.

                          What's worse than finding a worm in your apple?

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                          • #14
                            Hello ! I'm writing a Guide on the Red Mage : i just want to ask for use your board/picture for use it in my guide. Can i take them ?

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                            • #15
                              My thinking regarding the status heals is that Im almost always gonna be in a pt with a /whm somewhere. blm/whm, brd/whm, sum/whm, just whm, whatever/whm, you get where im going. im the /blm, but i will admit i think over that decision every time i hit the convert macro...

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