High level crossbows

[VZX]

I've heard someone said that Heavy Crossbow+1 is quite a good crossbows to put into consideration.

How about the other crossbow near pre / post othinus' bow?

have someone ever really tried it?
crossbows like velocity bow+1 , machine crossbows, Grosveneur's Bow, Ziska's Crossbow and yes, I would like to hear something more as well from heavy crossbow+1 user

Thanks

[imac2much]

I was in a PT with a h-xbow+1 RNG with my PLD at around level 70 or so. It was horrible. The user said that the heavy crossbow is just as good as o-bow... oh my goodness how wrong she was. Her barrage did crap, her WS did crap, she could never pull hate off me even if she tried with provoke (she was /war) unless I *intentionally* held back. That's pretty pathetic.

Just look at the stats of heavy crossbow+1:
d35, delay 280, rng atk+15
and o-bow:
d54, delay 432, rng atk+18

The damgae is low, the delay is low (less TP from barrage), everything about it is pretty subpar.

IMO the only people who would use this are people who can't seem to get o-bow but still want to use crossbow for acid bolts or something. If you do this just keep in mind your overall damage output will be MUCH lower.

Fast ranged weapons just aren't that practical in XP PT at high levels, when you want lots of TP from your weapon skills and barrage.

[ForumWhore]

Heavy x-bow+1 60-66 is pretty respectable damage. Definitely not as high as e-bow, but comparable to war bow+1 or sarnga. Acid bolts + quicker firing rate makes the damage about even.

However, WS damage is notably lower, and lower tp return on barrage makes things quite a bit harder when you want to slugshot > barrage > slugshot to kill a mob quickly.

[imac2much]

Just from a purely theoretical standpoint, I somewhat disagree. I haven't tested this but I can next time I PT (since my semi-SPT is at this level range now).

Remember that damage/delay ratio isn't exactly what decides total damge. High damage-to-high delay weapons often outdamage lower delay weapons with higher damage/delay ratio over time because enemy defense is calculated with each hit. Daggers have some of the highest damage/delay ratios in the game, yet are extremely weak in practice. Yes h-xbow+1 is faster, but the overall damage will probably be much lower. The only saving grace it has is acid bolts: but in this case in a multi RNG PT the bow users will benefit just as much.

And like you said the barrages and WS's will be significantly weaker.

I believe h-xbow+1 will still be noticeably weaker than warbow+1, but I'll try to test this out when I can.

Damage formulae in this game favor high damage-to-high delay weapons. This is emphasized even more so in RNG JA like barrage and WS like slugshot.

[VZX]

Remember that damage/delay ratio isn't exactly what decides total damge. High damage-to-high delay weapons often outdamage lower delay weapons with higher damage/delay ratio over time because enemy defense is calculated with each hit. Daggers have some of the highest damage/delay ratios in the game, yet are extremely weak in practice. Yes h-xbow+1 is faster, but the overall damage will probably be much lower. The only saving grace it has is acid bolts: but in this case in a multi RNG PT the bow users will benefit just as much.

yes,
but remember this comparison
sarnga vs warbow+1
why some people say it even out / warbow+1 most of the time better than sarnga?
sarnga has bigger base damage and have super big delay
war bow+1 has lower base damage, normal delay for most longbow
:/ but how come that kind of statement ever exist? at least.. from what I've heard

Zamburak+1 (acid+holy) vs GreatBow+1(horn)
I've tried changing one to the other, have them cap every time from 30-39. most of the time, my zamburak+1 + holy bolt base damage (given defense down activated) deal the same base damage as greatbow+1 + horn. and light damage always activate in my exp PT. Thus, pushing damage per shot from my zamburak always greater than my bow, plus with high fire rate and extra damage from other melee

if you compare theoritically just by base damage :
zamburak+1 + holy = 20+32 = 52
great bow+1 + horn = 44+17 = 61
it's 9 point damage difference, but still, my zamburak+1 can totally outdamage my greatbow+1.

And like you said the barrages and WS's will be significantly weaker.

can't be denied I definitely must agree with this for most crossbow

I believe h-xbow+1 will still be noticeably weaker than warbow+1, but I'll try to test this out when I can.

sure, because someone ever said his h-xbow damage totally outperformed war bow+1, just by seeing its raw damage

I hope I could some parsed data of some other crossbows as well in this thread

Thanks for the reply /bow

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by VZX
yes,
but remember this comparison
sarnga vs warbow+1
why some people say it even out / warbow+1 most of the time better than sarnga?
sarnga has bigger base damage and have super big delay
war bow+1 has lower base damage, normal delay for most longbow
:/ but how come that kind of statement ever exist? at least.. from what I've heard

Every report of a logged War+1 vs. Sarnga comparison that I've seen indicated that Sarnga does slightly more damage overall.

People post all the time and say that the damage per hit is not impressive, but I don't think you can eyeball the true effect of the accuracy bonus that Sarnga has.

[imac2much]

?
Why are we talking about lvl 30 though?
I may be mistaken but I thought we were talking about high level gameplay (60-75)? :confused:

I agree in the 30's xbow is more powerful in general, other than for barrage and WS. Since our damage per hit is less, the additional effect from holy bolt makes up a more significant percentage of the damage.

The higher level you get, the difference in damage per hit between xbow and box/gun gets much more noticeable, especially as monsters have more and more defense... so much so that I don't think the smaller delay makes up for it. Plus as you I said already, barrage and sidewinder favor higher damage+higher delay weapons.

[VZX]

sorry that I didn't state my point

my point was : does such "inconsistency" still appear on higher lvl? on xbow vs gun/bow

seeing that lvl 30 comparison, most people will just say : "oh, the bow would do better" just by speculating / guessing

but the fact isn't

[ForumWhore]

I belong to the other camp - those of us who just go by feeling. From 60-66 I felt that for normal shots only, heavy x-bow+1 is about the same as war bow +1 or sarnga (I used all 3 extensively from these levels). If I were to parse my fights it could damn well prove me wrong, but to me, feeling is good enough ;3

Besides, that's all in the past anyway, cos I've finally ungimped myself and gotten Othinus' Bow ;3

[imac2much]

Grats Kristin :p

[VZX]

hmm...
so, no one here really have experience with other high lvl crossbows? (yes, except heavy crossbow+1)

[Kuaiffxi]

The only other real "high level x-bow" right now is probably the new lvl 70 one Grosveneur's bow which is 40 damage 320 delay +4 agi +ranged acc +3 ranged atk. It would be interesting to see a parse between this + O-bow using holys and another using darksteel. unfortunately there has only been 2 sold on bahamut.

[Yoss]

I was just wondering from the people who've already gone 60-66, if you had to do it over again would you go Bow (WarBow+1/Sargna) or Heavy X-Bow+1?

It seems like using an X-Bow in a melee heavy party is a no brainer, but for a standard pty of 3 frontline 3 backline what would you use? Is it as simple as paladin tank, use Bow for attack-down, and ninja tank use xbow for def down?

Does the +7 acc difference from bow+arrow make that big a difference landing Slugshot vs. Sidewinder? Everytime I've been in a 2 rng pty, the ranger using X-bow always gained TP quicker. It was usually somewhere around ~24-36%, so it seemed like any difference in accuracy might've been negated by extra TP.

Lots of question, thanks ^^

[Macht]

Well from my experience the starting levels the x-bows do tend to beat out bow. Around lv. 20 the bow beats out x-bow, then again at about I think it was 35 the x-bow beats out bow again matching or surpassing it's damage a shot. At 50 though damage to damage without WSs or Barrage the Gun and Bow are quite equal (Without rapid shot taking effect the best gun at 50 will fire about 2 times in the War Bow+1s 3 shots, so the damage comes out comparitively equal) and the x-bow really starts to fall behind or can barely match the bow.

Barrage and WS added now and Gun (If the bullets, arrows, and bolts were used without restraint) starts to take lead in damage with bow closely behind it and X-bow nowere to be seen.

However x-bows benefits shouldn't be overlooked since many of the higher level bolts are all status effects and about the only time they are resisted is if the shot misses. That makes having a x-bow user quite useful. With 2 RNGs 1 using x-bow and acid+holy and the other using gun and silver you got some insaine damage going on with the coporation of the two working together.

[VZX]

I've checked AH so many times about the other crossbow post 60 (but not H-XBow). :
Ziska's crossbow, Armburst, Machine Crossbow, Grosveneur's Crossbow
no one sell the crossbow back.

2 possibilities I could say :
1. The crossbows are so good for some situation
2. The crossbow so lame so that even though one put it to AH so many times, no one would buy it

:/

comment?