E-Bow.. Worth it?

[poweryoga]

not too accurate at all.

E-bow rng was using Emp. Hairpin/AF , and ammo was scorpion vs demon. We'll ignore the hat because the ammemit +1 makes up for the lack of AF head.

Gun and silvers > E-bow + scorps.

Had the other ranger used E-bow and demons the whole time, guarantee you e-bow would win as demons can do up to 10-20 damage more per shot.

Seeing how silver bullets are 10-11k a stack and demons are 6-7k a stack... i'm sure you can setup a more controlled environment. Its not convincing enough to say

Musketeer + silver > e-bow and demons, just cuz the ranger wasn't using demons all the way...

Also a factor of nation controlling which sector for Musketeer's gun.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
not too accurate at all.

E-bow rng was using Emp. Hairpin/AF , and ammo was scorpion vs demon. We'll ignore the hat because the ammemit +1 makes up for the lack of AF head.

Gun and silvers > E-bow + scorps.

You did notice that the gun RNG said that he was using Spartan Bullets too, right?

Seeing how silver bullets are 10-11k a stack and demons are 6-7k a stack... i'm sure you can setup a more controlled environment.

Are you f'ing kidding?

Two rangers, same race, same level, same subjob, almost identical equipment... and you're saying that it's not controlled enough? It doesn't get any more controlled in a party built to gain exp.

Also a factor of nation controlling which sector for Musketeer's gun.

It's not much of a factor. If you get RATK bonus from Musketeer's +1, you don't get it from RK Belt+1, and vice versa. Besides, regional bonuses for an area out of your control are statistically more likely to occur, and are therefore generally superior anyway.

[Ru-Kenshin]

Please check my thread again.

I have updated it with more specifics, and I also tell how often I used Spartan Bullets and how often he used Scorpion Arrows.

I also found a slight mistake in the calculation for the Average Damage, Average Damage%, and the Melee and Ranged Miss%.

But, the Musketeer Gun +1 still came out on top.

[DrSerpico]

Hehehehe

Do I smell a faint whiff of hypocrisy?

Seeing how silver bullets are 10-11k a stack and demons are 6-7k a stack...

How about: Seeing how ebow costs 5 million, and musketeer +1... doesn't?

[poweryoga]

How about : Seeing how ebow costs 5 million, and musketeer +1... doesn't?

I don't think money was ever the issue here. The point is to see which one does more damage. The cost is something i put in absent mindedly and probably shouldn't have been in there at all. Also, the main cost of gun is the BULLETS, not the gun. guns are cheap as hell.

Also rereading his post....

Me - 125351 - 100 - 5783 - 72000 - 47568 - 0 - 240/1 - 17.4 - 3.81 - 36.58 - 74.73 - 19838

Him - 109068 - 100 - 5822 - 54002 - 45868 - 0 - 156/1 - 11 - 4.23 - 27.34 - 64.77 - 16321

-Total Fights: 104 76

-Average Damage: 1493.15 1435.11

-Average %Damage: 34.87 31.9

The math is wrong. Check the averages. The gun turns out to be lower with an average damage of 1205.3. I don't know how the parser fudged up when calculating the total damages, but errors are not to be ignored.

As for the controlled environment, I'd like to say this.

Unless you have EVERYTHING THE SAME, its not a controlled environment. Same thing goes for scientific experiments, a lot of experimental data becomes fucked up simply because they frogot to close the case or frogot to water the plant one day. "close enough" for 3 hours will turn into a 200-500 point damage difference. Those damage, though insignificant on even the weakest of mobs, makes a difference in these calculations.

Do you pass that off as "omg, close enough?" no. Also, exp parties are NOT a good way to do controlled tests as a lot of shit happens.

There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack, and then there's the whole accuracy issue, and stats too. Then there's the unknown factor in which whether the E-bow ranger used Scorpions When and where, because there ARE times when demons' effects don't land, and you wouldn't know the difference.

Also, issue of Ex Arrows Vs mobs, mob types, when the mob did a special move, when there was Def down, when there was a lot of things... (AKA: Crawler does cacoon right after first weapon skill. It happens. )

This simply isn't convincing enough to mark the e-bow obsolete in comparison to Musketeer's bow. Granted, its at a stupidly high price right now (the bow itself is NOT worth 5 mil) but that doesn't make its damage worse than gun.

This is a very good post regarding bow/gun damages, I'd like to see more data on this as it comes up.

[Stanislav]

I made my decison.. Gonna use the money for Striders and camp Eastern Shadow, Just seems much easier for me :sweat:

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
The math is wrong. Check the averages. The gun turns out to be lower with an average damage of 1205.3. I don't know how the parser fudged up when calculating the total damages, but errors are not to be ignored.

If you read the post, you will notice that he explained that though the parser had him tracked for 100+ fights, he only parsed data from 76 of them (the 76 that he was partied with the bow RNG).

As for the controlled environment, I'd like to say this.

Unless you have EVERYTHING THE SAME, its not a controlled environment.

That's great and all, but when you have an environment that is 99%+ the same, I would call that "good enough." You have two RNGs of the same race, same level, with almost exactly the same net stats (bow RNG has a slight stat advantage). If you are going to try to dismiss the logs on this, you're just nitpicking because you don't like the results.

Do you pass that off as "omg, close enough?" no. Also, exp parties are NOT a good way to do controlled tests as a lot of shit happens.

Exp parties are the only way to do a controlled test of which weapon does more damage in exp parties. QED.

There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack, and then there's the whole accuracy issue, and stats too.

The bow RNG has the advantage in RATK, and he still lost.

The gun RNG has the advantage in accuracy, which he should, because Musketeer's is more accurate than E-bow.

Then there's the unknown factor in which whether the E-bow ranger used Scorpions When and where, because there ARE times when demons' effects don't land, and you wouldn't know the difference.

The gun RNG went through a full stack of spartans in this party. The difference between a scorp and demon is 10 damage; the difference between a spartan and silver is 80. That means that the bow RNG would have had to go through 8 stacks of scorps, in order not to have an unfair advantage. He didn't; he went through "about as many stacks of demons" as the gun RNG went through silvers. Again, advantage to bow, gun still overcomes it.

Also, issue of Ex Arrows Vs mobs, mob types, when the mob did a special move, when there was Def down, when there was a lot of things... (AKA: Crawler does cacoon right after first weapon skill. It happens. )

Excuses, excuses. These can apply to either player. All that you're doing here is saying that logs can't be trusted, period.

[imac2much]

I think the point Yoga is trying to make by mentioning all these variables is that some people are putting too much weight on this one log. Most people in this thread have responded by thinking that guns are *clearly* superior to E-bow... how do you know that in another XP PT the E-bow wouldn't win over due to some other variables? Don't put all your money on one session of logging... some more data is probably necessary before you make a final call.

However, I think the point of the original poster is to show that, if there is any difference between a gun and e-bow, that difference is *negligible* either way. Even if somehow the E-bow would occasionally outdamage guns in a xp session, the difference wouldn't be totally apparent. So that's good news to RNG who don't want to shell out 23085725087 million for a 1% damage increase, if any.

EXP parties are NOT the best way to log testing for EXP mobs. The reason? As yoga said, lots of random variables and unaccounted circumstances can occur and mess up your testing without you knowing it. The best way to log results is to be fighting EXP *monsters* but not necessarily in an EXP environment. For instance, have 2 equally leveled/equipped RNG with only 1 variable of difference (e-bow vs gun) and have them attack the same monster while higher level helpers tank, support and heal, so that the ONLY thing you have to worry about is RNG damage (not adds, not xp chains, etc).

Spider-Dan, chill out with the condescending tone. Stop being so defensive... an argument against the analysis is not a personal flame about your mother.

Also, I wonder if the E-bow user was using P.P. arrow for WS? AFAIK there is no PPA equivalent for a gun... is there? (I know there is PPA equivalent for xbow, gold musketeer bolt or whatever)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
I think the point Yoga is trying to make by mentioning all these variables is that some people are putting too much weight on this one log. Most people in this thread have responded by thinking that guns are *clearly* superior to E-bow... how do you know that in another XP PT the E-bow wouldn't win over due to some other variables? Don't put all your money on one session of logging... some more data is probably necessary before you make a final call.

When someone presents a log of E-bow vs. Musketeer's that has different results, we can talk about those. But to stand around and say "this doesn't count" is ridiculous. The logs are what they are; plain and simple data. You can interpret the data as you wish, but the indisputable fact is that in this log, a 50k Musketeer's +1 (and 110k of silvers) outdamaged a 5mil Eurytos' (and 80k of demons).

The main benefit of the archery "investment" is that the ammo's supposed to be cheap, right? If you're dropping 8k a stack on demons just to compete with a gun, what's the point?

EXP parties are NOT the best way to log testing for EXP mobs. The reason? As yoga said, lots of random variables and unaccounted circumstances can occur and mess up your testing without you knowing it. The best way to log results is to be fighting EXP *monsters* but not necessarily in an EXP environment. For instance, have 2 equally leveled/equipped RNG with only 1 variable of difference (e-bow vs gun) and have them attack the same monster while higher level helpers tank, support and heal, so that the ONLY thing you have to worry about is RNG damage (not adds, not xp chains, etc).

Two problems:

1) Mobs are random, and can still spam a defense buff in the middle of a SC, or decide to spam their special attacks, etc. This factor cannot be eliminated when fighting mobs, period.

2) If you don't have a real exp party, your results are faked. You'reremoving very real factors (exp chaining, similar level party members, etc.) and replacing them with test dummies. These logs show what's working in a real exp environment; that's why you can't substitute a fake, totally safe "powerlevel" type party for parsing purposes.

[Ru-Kenshin]

Wow... Looks like I need to copy over what I said in another forum, because it looks like everyone is starting to get a bit picky and defensive.

I have updated the thread with the correct numbers. I've spent the last 1.5-2 hours checking all the information, because as I mentioned I did find out what was wrong. I would advice looking through the thread once more if you didn't already.

Now, for my main point...

One thing, please don't critisize me for this. I am writing this thread with the thought in mind of how many people have asked "Gun, or Ebow?". I have seen well over 20 threads asking this question, and all of which had replies like "I'm not sure, but I like my E-bow" or "Musk hits for more, but I'm not sure if the short delay of the Ebow makes up for it" or someone will try to figure it out with some damage/delay equation, which has already been proved inaccurate.

I am not trying to say "Ebow people aren't as good as Gun people!" or "Gun people aren't as good as Ebow people!", or anything like that, as it seems that most of you may be taking it to. I am simply providing the information I obtained from MY experience with a Gun Ranger vs. a Bow Ranger, and please do not take it any farther then that.

And I owe you a big thanks red, both for defending me with the critism I've already got (despite my non-biased attitude in this matter :mad: ), and just saving me a lot of writing with issues I already covered in the main post. Thanks man

[greysenn]

Good stuff Ru, I think you'd have a harder time getting a more exact parse than that.

The main benefit of the archery "investment" is that the ammo's supposed to be cheap, right? If you're dropping 8k a stack on demons just to compete with a gun, what's the point?

Who says you have to? The E-bow user can spend 2k a stack on scorps, outdamage everyone except gun users, and still sell the bow back later and have a good amount of pocket change.

If you have the cash laying around, and want to money left over when you're done leveling, E-bow is still the weapon of choice.

[RangerDade]

i read your post which is interesting, but the a few things stick out. A. what was skillchain? if you were closing you were geting another 400 dmg a mob probly. B. crawlers and darters ranger atks get a 1.5times(?) bonus so the margin is greater than it is. also what did you use to parse(i want to do some test myself)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by greysenn
Who says you have to? The E-bow user can spend 2k a stack on scorps, outdamage everyone except gun users, and still sell the bow back later and have a good amount of pocket change.

If you have the cash laying around, and want to money left over when you're done leveling, E-bow is still the weapon of choice.

If you have 5 million gil laying around, not only can you easily afford a gun and enough silvers to take you to endgame, but you can also level several crafts extremely high and get a much better return on investment, while doing better damage the whole time. Win/win.

E-bow is better for farming though. =P

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by RangerDade
A. what was skillchain? if you were closing you were geting another 400 dmg a mob probly.

Parser tracks skillchains separately; if you close a SC, the SC damage is not credited to you.

[poweryoga]

Where to begin....

That's great and all, but when you have an environment that is 99%+ the same, I would call that "good enough." You have two RNGs of the same race, same level, with almost exactly the same net stats (bow RNG has a slight stat advantage). If you are going to try to dismiss the logs on this, you're just nitpicking because you don't like the results.

The thing is, its NOT 99% the same. I can understand having the same Acc/Rattack, but having a difference of up to around 20-30 Rattack makes the data innaccurate, and thus not anywhere NEAR 99% the same. And as Dade said, there's a difference between starter and ender.

Exp parties are the only way to do a controlled test of which weapon does more damage in exp parties. QED.

thought we were talking about which does more damage? Not what is going on in exp parties? Exp parties have a LOT of variables such as links, adds, minuets, whatever. The best controlled equipment would be between 2 rangers with completely identical equipment short of the ranged weapons, a paladin, and a healer with the pld keeping hate, healer healing and the rangers doing their attacks. Player fight style has ALOT to do with damage output, don't froget that.

The bow RNG has the advantage in RATK, and he still lost.

The gun RNG has the advantage in accuracy, which he should, because Musketeer's is more accurate than E-bow.

I'll repost what I said.

"There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack..."

The gun RNG went through a full stack of spartans in this party. The difference between a scorp and demon is 10 damage; the difference between a spartan and silver is 80. That means that the bow RNG would have had to go through 8 stacks of scorps, in order not to have an unfair advantage. He didn't; he went through "about as many stacks of demons" as the gun RNG went through silvers. Again, advantage to bow, gun still overcomes it.

Seeing how when I use demon arrows i can get up to 20-30 more damage PER SHOT, its a lot more than just the mere 10 points in difference. The point is, you don't KNOW when he's using scorps and when he's using the demons. That is an uncontrolled variable that you can't see, and can't consider.

Excuses, excuses. These can apply to either player. All that you're doing here is saying that logs can't be trusted, period.

No, maybe you're just putting words in my mouth? Its true that it can happen to any player, but if one person is going first in the skill chain its much more likely to happen to the 2nd player as the first attack might put the crawler over the "weapon skill" limit. If the first player sees a cacoon goes up, he's not gonna shoot off a sidewinder until its dispelled. Keep childish comments like that to yourself please, I'm trying to keep this as civilized a discussion as I can without bashing you in any sort of way. From experiences this has happend way too much to neglect in these logs.

If i see in the log...

Player A does XXX damage with sidewinder!
Crawler readies Cacoon!
Crawler gains the effect of defense up!
Player B does xxx damage with sidewinder!

Obviously there's a difference.

There's a difference between saying "guns outdamage e-bow in an exp party" and that "guns do the most damage period", because those 2 are very different. A log by one person is not the endall argument.

Stop trying to berate my arguments, you only make yourself look angry and defensive when all I'm trying to do is argue some points I don't believe are correct. I am not flaming you nor belittling your arguments, and I'm certainly not dissing Ru-Kenshin's post in any way.

I'm not making fun of your mom, chill.