Paladins a doomed job?

[csBahamut]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

The good WHMs that can work well with PLDs know that they can rest during fights.

[Amarok]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

My main job is MNK67 now but I have found lvling my NIN to be quite a nice change when I feel like it, and now my NIN is lvl 51.

My fights usually go like this:

1. As mob comes in from pull get into attack mode in good time, and cast the Blind enfeeble (Ni version). Then voke.

2. Cast the Ni version of Slow. If there is an RDM in party I will ask to do the blind and slows at the start as they are quick to cast and the RDM can get in Paralyse at the same time.

3. Start the elemental wheel, after about the 2nd or 3rd voke is ready again, re-voke. The ele wheel is the key to all of this, its actually pretty powerful at Ni lvl, and brings down the resistance to just about all the elements for any nukers in the party, and for the SC/MB. I never go out for Xp party with less that 198 of each ele powder in inventory, and 1 stack of each enfeeble powder.

4. Once the wheel is finished, switch to melee only, spam the best throwing weapon you can to keep it skilled up per lvl. Don't forget to voke asap. If its a particularly nasty mob thats not dying then re-do the ele wheel.

Of course you do the Utsusemi spells when needed. I'm not one to try and count the shadow hits, its just too much work and gives me a headache. maybe when Duoing I do that but not in XP parties. I have -45% spell interruption gear so I normally get my shadows up with only 1 hit to me.

Doing the ele wheel means you are slow to build TP, so you will end up soloing your WS most of the time, I keep it back for those times hate gets away from me (not often).

Food is a tricky one, if the fights are gonna be at least 2 sets of the ele wheel per mob, then I use sweet rice cakes for the +INT and Eva. Otherwise at my lvl its still Dhalmel pies or Mithkabobs (no sushi yet). I'll probably want to switch to Sushi soon though.


Ama

[Maju]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Maju, I left that party that day because the party you formed had no chance of xping correctly on anything, let alone marids. It was a waste of my time, and quite franky, I didn't have time to waste.

I believe the party setup was SMN, RDM, BLM, MNK, PLD, SAM. I guess anything that isn't a burn PT "has no chance of xping correctly on anything". Funny, considering you were in a PT I made in the high 50s to low 60s where we gained over 10k/h on lesser colibri.

You're right about the marids. I had not tried them before and wasn't sure if we can exp on them and I made it very clear to the PT. I said we can go to erucas if the marid idea fails, but you simply bailed out and the PT had to disband because of it.

I suppose you yourself will never level a job that isn't ideal to your beloved burn parties. Too bad many key end-game jobs belong to that category. What if everyone had the same attitude as you? You wouldn't be able to do your end game activities because the only jobs available would be BLM, RDM, BRD, NIN, WAR and MNK. Those who don't contribute to the cooking shouldn't be allowed to eat.

[Justanotherface]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I suppose you yourself will never level a job that isn't ideal to your beloved burn parties. Too bad many key end-game jobs belong to that category. What if everyone had the same attitude as you? You wouldn't be able to do your end game activities because the only jobs available would be BLM, RDM, BRD, NIN, WAR and MNK. Those who don't contribute to the cooking shouldn't be allowed to eat.

Oh how wrong you are. After RDM, I'm taking up Summoner (not only to sub to whm, but to main), as well as Thief, once I'm done with my summer courses...

The good WHMs that can work well with PLDs know that they can rest during fights.

I never said I didn't... I said I burned more MP.

SPOILERS: You fail at Red Mage.

That makes me giggle. Considering I've meritted anything I can for my RDM full from my WHM and BLM (int, mp, enmity, enfeeb), I'd say I'm quite a darn good RDM. Everything I cast sticks, I never run low on mp before vert is up (heck, I don't vert very often at all), and I keep everyone's refresh up or haste, while still debuffing things. to you sir.. many, many

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

That makes me giggle. Considering I've meritted anything I can for my RDM full from my WHM and BLM (int, mp, enmity, enfeeb), I'd say I'm quite a darn good RDM. Everything I cast sticks, I never run low on mp before vert is up (heck, I don't vert very often at all), and I keep everyone's refresh up or haste, while still debuffing things. to you sir.. many, many

You have merits, so you're automatically the winRAR? Nay, sir. Nay. You seem to have a huge ego problem and have difficulty being flexible and actually working with a group. Therefore, you fail as a Red Mage. Have a wonderful time with your burn parties, I'm sure every Paladin on Midgard who reads these forums who actively participates in HNM will be hesitant to tank those nice gears for you after seeing this.

[Justanotherface]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

You have merits, so you're automatically the winRAR? Nay, sir. Nay. You seem to have a huge ego problem and have difficulty being flexible and actually working with a group. Therefore, you fail as a Red Mage. Have a wonderful time with your burn parties, I'm sure every Paladin on Midgard who reads these forums who actively participates in HNM will be hesitant to tank those nice gears for you after seeing this.

Right. All those PLDs who stay healed, or refreshed, or regen'ed will be so reluctant to do that. You seem to fail to realize it's a 2 way relationship between a whm and a pld. Just because I don't want to xp with them post-60, it doesn't mean I don't treat them well in a party.

Oh, and I'm sure you know exactly what gear I have... I've been playing this game since US release. I'm quite well-off with my gear, thanks...

Go find someone else to bother needlessly.. I'm sure you have nothing better to do with your time. I, however, have a life... which I'm gonna attend to now.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Right. All those PLDs who stay healed, or refreshed, or regen'ed will be so reluctant to do that. You seem to fail to realize it's a 2 way relationship between a whm and a pld. Just because I don't want to xp with them post-60, it doesn't mean I don't treat them well in a party.

You refuse to meet us halfway, and yet you tell me that I don't understand the relationship between the WHM and PLD? We tank for you, and in exchange we need exp to keep up our buffer, or merits to improve our ability to tank. But getting shiny new gear is as far as you'll go. You fail at understanding simple give and take.

Oh, and I'm sure you know exactly what gear I have... I've been playing this game since US release. I'm quite well-off with my gear, thanks...

I've played since day one. What's your point? Are you magically a better player because of it? Nope, you've just run the treadmill longer.

Go find someone else to bother needlessly.. I'm sure you have nothing better to do with your time. I, however, have a life... which I'm gonna attend to now.

Personal attacks are made of lol and fail. Keep it up, you're doing wonderful so far.

[Madtech]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Trust me PLD is not dead; at least on my server it isn't. I see way too many PLD on the server I'm on, all of them in a pt and not lfp and wearing their full AF. I have a this condition where if I put up my pt flag, I get no invites, but the moment it goes down, BAM!!!! Instant invite.

PLD is loved for the kind of stuff we can dish out to keep hate; heck we can even cover the crazy DRK who just dealt 3000 dmg to the mob and keep him alive lol.

In all honesty tho, end-game Nin is preferred, but a well equiped PLD can do just fine. Suicide tanking for dynamis may be called for - but that's just what I've heard. In xp too Nin is prefered for the xtra 5k xp per hour - heck 5k for merits goes a long way. I'm not a Nin, and don't intead to either, but I've pt with Nin b4 and some insisted on me tanking cuz of the mob we were fighting (Mnk and Nin do not mix well, neither do WAR types that double-attack).

So yeah, Nin can tank certain mobs maybe even blink tank with other Nin or /nin; however, PLD IMO can tank pretty much anything given the right support - no questioning bout what mob type we be facing.

[FranckKnight]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

I'm a PLD 70, and I had no troubles finding a party most of the time. There were of course lapses where I'm LFP and no invites, but sometimes I get invites without being LFP either.

Now for the PLD vs NIN. Different party setups and different mobs to exp on are required in both cases. Marids for example are no-go for Ninjas. Marids hit awy too fast, too hard, and chigoes will rip through the shadows in no time, leaving the Ninja with a long recast timer and little defense.

I agree that Ninjas will often be preferable, but in certain situations you'll see the PLD shine. For example, this weekend we went to fight Imps and Flys in Caederva Mire. Sometimes you can't avoid a link, and Sleep don't always stick on the first attempt. A PLD can theoritically tank both links until slept and survive. A Ninja wouldn't.

A PLD also has the biggest Hate Getter in the game with Invincible, which is very useful in a party sometimes. Ninja's Mijin Gakure will only save their own EXP and get a free blood warp to town <.<

Not to mention that even with two utsusemis, they still somewhat require a second voker to take the heat off them for a moment. Ninja's sole hate methods are Provoke and pure damage. I consider then more like a Tanking DD than a Defensive Tank. Sure the PLD will get hurt, but he won't be killed in 2 or 3 hits, andhe CAN heal himself at least.

[Aeni]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

SPOILERS: You fail at Red Mage.

Yeah, I second this. This RDM totally blows. I bet I can solo Bune with enough money at 66 than this guy could at 75...

But in all seriousness, what Justanotherface fails to realize is this: You want PLD for end game, even if it's just 15% of the time, but if those 15% of the time means anything at all to even a few members of your LS in terms of drops or what have you, how the hell do you expect a PLD to: (a) get to 75 in the first place and (b) improve him/herself through meriting if no one wants him/her and if everyone thinks the same way as you?

OMFG

Double Post Edited:

Drk - the major selling point of Drk is extremely powerful WS; however the over spamming WS and very quick kills (only 2~3 swings of a scythe) left this job TP-less every odd number of fight. Some Drk sub ninja and used sword/axe style instead but I have yet to see a drk/nin replacing the overwhelming power of war/nin.

I know this was posted a while back, but because Abs-TP is out, what is your thoughts (or any for the other jobs) on this now?

[Darkhound]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Aeni, long time no see. where have you been?

[Gwynn]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

You have merits, so you're automatically the winRAR? Nay, sir. Nay. You seem to have a huge ego problem and have difficulty being flexible and actually working with a group. Therefore, you fail as a Red Mage. Have a wonderful time with your burn parties, I'm sure every Paladin on Midgard who reads these forums who actively participates in HNM will be hesitant to tank those nice gears for you after seeing this.

Agreed... RDMs can't afford to be arrogant jackasses. As our job is a support job, by our very nature we must be servants. We have to take whatever party we're in and do our best to patch the holes, go over the rough spots, and make it work. And theres nothing wrong with getting 6k/hour, I do it all the time. I agree... you fail.

[Aeni]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

Aeni, long time no see. where have you been?

Took a break from FFXI, mostly because I am LOL'ing at the economy at Hades too much to even play straight and be halfway decent for a party. Dangerous combination O.O If anyone is playing WoW, look me up on Cenarius. But not like that server needs anymore on alliance (5:1 alliance to horde ration purely on AH activity - you can track raid drops and just know how many are participating in raid/end game and usually come to a meaningful conclusion on population)

Agreed... RDMs can't afford to be arrogant jackasses. As our job is a support job, by our very nature we must be servants. We have to take whatever party we're in and do our best to patch the holes, go over the rough spots, and make it work. And theres nothing wrong with getting 6k/hour, I do it all the time. I agree... you fail.

No, don't make it sound like that You make it sound like we work at a sweat shop for spit-on-dirt pay, even if it is true. But seriously, you are dead right. We do have a responsibility to make the party click and run smoothly. It's not only the tank's job. I bet this guy who got to 75 on RDM, boasting about his end-game toys and his total merits did so after riding on other people's ass to get them. I mean, just look at his arrogance in the posts. The dude totally believes that everyone owes him something, even though I'm willing to bet the world it's the other way around...

[Corthaemus]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

PLDs are not dead, and NINs aren't awful tanks. PLD + RDM, or NIN + THF. Don't make parties with those tanks without the complementary job. There are bad NINs. There are bad PLDs. There are instances when one tank may work better than another, but never is one tank useless compared to the other. I can pull hate off a PLD just as fast as I can pull hate off a NIN. The main problem is that everyone feels the need to do the 'uber dmg'. Like a previous poster had mentioned, when a drk pulls hate, why not change equipment for more survivability? Because they want to keep seeing those big numbers, and blame someone else when they die. As long as people play with that mentality, there will always be discussions like this.

As for the NIN's elemental nukes, Ichi is useless due to the long casting time. Ni works until about mid 50s when your katanas start putting out the same amount of damage as the nukes. Then it becomes a waste of gil. They're still good for grabbing hate if you lose the mobs focus, and voke's down. So are shurikens if you have the right gear and capped skill.

[Vyuru]

Re: Paladins a doomed job?

These two quotes sum up all the reasons I like paladins over ninjas.

Paladins require a different setup than Ninjas - I actually prefer Paladins over Ninjas. The overall XP might be slightly lower, but the safety factor is higher too, which nets out to the same thing in my book.

Not to mention, once Utsuemi goes down, a ninja is pretty much a paper tank. A PLD without MP can still soak massive amounts of damage.

As far as I am concerned, a death in the party = failed party, with a Pld tank, there have been very, very few deaths, ever.

I think your main problem is your level, right now I am also lvl 66, and it took me two WEEKS to get a party together, simply because there were not enough people seeking of the right jobs (like paladin ) to get one made.

I would also point out to that rdm next time you see him that:

1) You won't tank the mobs to get him his shiny Crimson armor if he won't party with you.

2) There is little to no need to have a Rdm in a party that has no paladin. I can find other mobs that don't require dispel, and refresh is a luxury, especially when your whm is eating ginger cookies, subs blm, and has a dark staff, which from my experiance all whm have.

Now yeah, I like red mages, they make killing the monsters easier, and they are a good backup/support mage for everything, so it's not that I don't like them or think their only use is being refreshers

Most ninja parties I've seen always tend to favor summoners for some reason, I don't know why since they won't let the summoner use blood pacts, a rdm would have convert and a stronger refresh, so auto refresh has nothing to do with it... >.>




Oh, I was reading the back page and ran into this:

Originally Posted by Justanotherface
Oh, and I'm sure you know exactly what gear I have... I've been playing this game since US release. I'm quite well-off with my gear, thanks...

Oh, excuse me, you are playing the job that almost every party wants, the job that every HNM LS wants, and it's a surprise that you have good gear? Wow.

And yes, I'll talk that way to you because I was in the BakkaTeaParty LS, which was mostly paladins and mages, I darn well know how much end game LS want you guys, and how easy it is to make money with them. If you have that attitude towards paladins then you are a sad disgrace to red mages.

You are not fit to even CAST refresh on my paladin friends.

It was a waste of my time, and quite franky, I didn't have time to waste.

If I, who only gets to play for a total of 6hrs/week, 3 hours on two days of the week, can find time to waste, I'm sure you can too.

I never run low on mp before vert is up (heck, I don't vert very often at all), and I keep everyone's refresh up or haste, while still debuffing things. to you sir.. many, many

Excuse me, but didn't you say that you didn't want to wast 80mp to haste a pld? That it was a waste of mp? if you don't convert very often at all, that means you either have a large manapool that goes unused, or your mp regeneration rate is greater than you are spending it, either way, with convert that is 700+mp going unused, that you could use.

Basically, in reading between the lines of that post, I gather that you don't want to have to work with a pld tank, you just want to plunk your butt down and spam your macros without thinking.

I just don't think it's prudent for me to spend my time in a party making 6k/hr, when I can be refreshing a manaburn, or hasting a meleeburn for 8-10k/hr.

Why would I want to slow down my meleeburn party with a red mage? Brd, whm, 4x melee, that's a TP burn. Heck, if I wanted to make sure everyone was hasted I'd sub brd for haste, when I party in a TP burn, I AM the tank, so losing the benefits of a war sub for AoE haste might be more beneficial for the party.

Heck, whm and blm get all of your enfeebles except for gravity, which most rdm don't cast anyway, everything else you do in a party a brd can do, all without using mp, or the worry of get magic aggro from mobs, we should all just party with brds instead of rdm, parties will go so much faster.

I for every arguement that you can think of saying why you don't like paladins in a party, I can find one for why a red mage shouldn't be in a party. The knife cuts both ways Justanotherface.

I've meritted anything I can for my RDM full from my WHM and BLM (int, mp, enmity, enfeeb), I'd say I'm quite a darn good RDM

/sarcasm on

And since I have 50% of all items needed to upgrade my relic weapon, not counting rare/ex equipment since I haven't even BEEN into a dynamis run yet, I haven't even killed the shadow lord yet, I must obviously be a pretty good dragoon.

/sarcasm off

i dont blame him for leaving.

Well I do, I take care of a sick person 24/7, I go to college full time, do NOT come crying about how little time you have to party and how horrible 6k/hour is. For crying out loud if it's not acceptable to you just take it like a man, whatever happened to good sportsmanship and rolling with the punches?

To be perfectly honest that is what has me so mad at this guy, grow up, and act like an adult, geesh, I wouldn't expect an 8 year old to act the way you are coming across on this board, for shame.