Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

[Armando]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

Crabs with no dispel are guaranteed to be miserable. The fact that you *also* had no refresh (for a tank setup that is even more MP-heavy than PLD/WAR) just reinforces the misery, but honestly, I don't think a COR would have saved you.

However, in a strange sense, I'm glad to see this post: it shows that you can actually evaluate the successes and failures of this method and aren't some kind of cheerleader living in a dreamworld where everything works if you want it to. (Given your other posts, I didn't think that was very likely anyway, but seeing this reinforces it.)

One tip on macros you might not have tried:
/ma Flash <stnpc>
/recast Flash

For a long time, I thought it was annoying that when you can't cast a spell because of recast, it doesn't tell you how much time is left on the recast the way it does for JAs. Well, it does if you use that setup. I find it much more convenient than opening the magic list.

Haha, thanks. Yeah, I may be stubborn, but I'm not so dense that I can't see how much that experience sucked XD As for that Flash macro...thanks, but I don't think it'll help me What bothered me about the macros was that 1) I couldn't tell what's up what's not just by glancing over them and 2) can see the recasts, but I have to be constantly checking to know when it's ready. It makes me feel kind of lost, because, to be honest, when I'm playing /RDM I lose notion of time since I have to be constantly focusing on timing spells. When I open up the spell list, I can quickly see what's available, and actually watch the timer tick down. To each his own, I guess

I agree 1 billion percent. With both of these paragraphs. Honestly though, I woulda just ditched the party or changed to /war when they decided to go to kuftal. Lacking Dispel kills more than Refresh there, and you knew heading into this thing that /rdm required constant mp upkeep. And corsair's kinda gruesome because their refresh is inconsistent and they lack any sort of dispel. And yes, even though I know you're lucid, it's nice for any skeptics to see that you know your formula has it's flaws.

I wanted to change jobs, but we were pretty far out from Aht Urhgan and they wanted to just take a Dem right where we stood. Plus, they didn't say anything about crabs, they said we were going to Cape Terrigan to fight Raptors and stuff. You're right, though, I should've seen it coming. I'm not doing that ever again >.>

Lastly, like spikes, enspells seem to generate some hate on casting (if I remember right from my valkrum/qufim days) though it seems negligible. Just thought I'd mention it.

Thanks for the support ^^ Yeah, when I was still doing RDM/BST I noticed casting Enspells mid-fight would invariably have me tanking the mob when I'm trying to stay just behind my pet in the hate list, but I doubt it's as much as I can get with Blind or the others.

Regarding Corsairs: I think Evoker's Roll is just fine, especially in ToAU where I have Sanction Refresh to fall back on. My only problem with CORs has been that for some reason there's always a THF in the party when I party with them, and you know what happens then. I once had a party with COR + RDM, though. That was freaking amazing.

Update! I made it to 59. Sadly, I got busted on the way to camp, as someone caught me casting Sneak. Of course, one or two people kept saying they'd feel safer with /WAR, but the party as a whole was open-minded enough to let me try before making me change subs. After about 20 minutes of fighting, they told me they were impressed, and all was well. Hell, the first WAR/NIN said he's 75 PLD and wanted to give it a shot himself. We were fighting Colibris, so it wasn't very different from the previous parties. I had a RDM and SMN at first, stacking Blink with Earthen Ward is so neat XD And having permanent Refresh is a godsend. My MP would sometimes sink low (what with the nonstop pulling and fighting,) but with 5 MP/tick I never had to actually stop for it.

After a while we replaced the SMN with a WHM (GLEE) and the WAR/NIN for a JP WAR/NIN. I will say this now: Call me biased or whatever, but to me there's no better healer than a Flash-happy WHM. I had to encourage her to do it, but it is so beyond awesome. I had Blink up very often thanks to it. I liked this particular WAR/NIN a lot, too - it's not really anything new, as it's something most WARs should do (yet many don't), but he never hessitated to Provoke if hate dwindled. Of course, it'd be hard to rip it off him afterwards, but that's the beauty of it...I'd let him use three shadows, he'd recast, I'd Flash, he'd eventually lose 3 more shadows, WHM would Flash, I'd Cover, and we'd ride that out for quite a time without the WAR actually coming into harm. The MNK was also very good. She'd rip hate off of me often (damn those crazy MNKs!) but she'd usually coordinate with the WAR/NINs so that they'd Rampage + Raging Fists late in the fight and either kill it or leave it with a sliver of HP, at which point it really didn't matter. If she Raging Fist'd earlier in the fight, she didn't hessitate to run behind me for Cover. Of course, she did take some hits, but nothing too serious.

I hit 59. I hit 195 Sword skill, got Vorpal Blade. I am IN LOVE with this WS. Seriously. I don't think I did any less than 100 damage, and it wasn't uncommon to do 200+, and sometimes 300. All that Acc gear is paying off, although I still find I need some more. Either way, I love it, I love it, I've never been so excited to see my TP reach 100 before, and it wasn't just with the first one. No, each Vorpal Blade makes my heart skip a bit as I wait expectantly for my TP return and the damage numbers. This is freaking awesome, and if anything else, makes subbing RDM so worth it XD

Oh, and I finally got my Gallant Breeches. Took freaking 4 hours, but they're well worth it. Go go 13 Enmity!

[dirtyclown]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

Congrats, Armando. I really wish I could get people to coordinate with me during parties, nobody ever wants to move behind me for Cover. I always end up running around like an idiot trying to get in front of someone.

[Armando]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

Congrats, Armando. I really wish I could get people to coordinate with me during parties, nobody ever wants to move behind me for Cover. I always end up running around like an idiot trying to get in front of someone.

Thanks. Unfortunately, I know what you mean. To me, having the MNK moving behind me was a rare treat.

This'll be my last update for a while. I just hit level 60, and it's time to buckle down and get some stuff out of the way: Gallant Surcoat, Genkai 3, re-capping Enhancing, and getting RDM to 37 (I'll probably cave and take it to 40 just for level-capped events and whatnot.)

More Lesser Colibris. This party was different, though. The DRG and the THF actually got SATA off early and relatively quickly without any mishaps, quickly securing hate on me. This is actually the first time as PLD/RDM that I get consistent SATAs at the beginning of fights. After a while, I noticed I could totally slack off and still hold hate. Then, I noticed I could change to my Accuracy gear and still hold hate. So, slight change of plans!

Since I didn't have to use my enfeebles to hold hate anymore, I decided to use my MP towards healing myself to ease Zaphier's healing load (party was PLD THF DRG BLM BLU RDM, so he got stuck with Refresh and main healing duties.) The battle went something like this: DRG Provokes, SATA, I heal DRG, 3 shadows wear, Flash, Blink, heal myself, and repeat Flash -> Blink as often as possible, and continue to heal myself as I see fit. Since I didn't have to be constantly spamming enfeebles, and since I could tank in my Acc gear (R.G. Collar, Jaridah Peti, R.K. Mufflers, Venerer Ring, Puissance Ring, Life Belt) I got to hit the mob more.

Because of SATA, I had a bit more breathing room between pulls, so I'd go ahead and start casting Blink as soon as the mob died, then use my time behind the mob while I waited for SATA to land to recast Enblizzard, Aquaveil, or simply throw a Regen at the DRG.

Overall, it was one of the most enjoyable parties I've had so far. Hate wasn't even an issue, I didn't have to be constantly shuffling between my enfeebles nonstop, I actually had a bit of time to relax between pulls and while waiting for SATA, MP was never an issue, but the EXP was still totally sweet. As usual, nonstop Chain 5's. Just once, I'd like to try PLD THF DRG WHM BLM RDM.

Well, I guess that's it for now. Thanks a lot for all the support you've shown and the tips you gave me, I appreciate it a lot. I guess I'll necrobump this when I'm done with all I have to do XD

[Slip]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

I look forward to the necrobump, it's been fascinating to read this so far.

One other thing to look forward to when you get back to this -> at 60 you can do away with the normal SATA lineup with a Thief thanks to their Assasin trait.

[Celeal]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

/off-topic

I am wondering, if PLD/RDM works, would PLD/BLU works as well? Using low mp spell like Cocoon and Head Butt, etc... using more acc+ and DD gear/food for DoT and BLU physical spell, let Cocoon take care the Def+ part.

[Lmnop]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

sorry Celeal, we talked about this a couple times in this thread. I think the belief right now is that all you're getting is great defense and an mp-sink of a curaga. nothing about it seems conducive to conserving mp (whereas most of the RDM spells used cost almost no mp after figuring in refresh or pay for themselves in damage avoidance) and no hate tools. We have yet to see though for sure.

[SonikU4ia]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

This post is quite fascinating.

I stopped PLD @56 because if felt pointless to try to tank if I knew a NIN could just simply out perform me. I thought to maybe go back and play the job again in the future just for fun, but that would be it simply.

PLD/RDM sounds completely viable given the information presented in this thread. That is, if you are simply questioning whether or not /RDM simply works. As far as increasing xp / hour, I tend to wonder on that if it helps any for the party. Because party usually seems dependent on how much dmg vs healing is done and adding refresh, so if the PLD/RDM is able to hold hate and take less damage than PLD/WAR, then absolutely, certainly, that's a great find.

However, if PLD/RDM doesn't increase xp / hour, what would it really matter? That would still prove it being viable as long as xp doesn't suffer nor party members.

PLD/BLU is another interesting concept. I don't know the mathematical calculations of Cocoon vs Phalanx, but you don't get Phalanx until 66 subbed and you can get Cocoon at 16. Cocoon is a 50% defense increase (which I would wager some points pre-30, you can get more defense than a PLD playing as BLU/WAR.) BLU has alot of tools useable to keep hate in the form of damage, but BLU skill would be halved. You could gain Stoneskin, no Blink. No En-spells. Its certainly worth testing.

Anyway, I may have the gusto to pick PLD back up again...

[Armando]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

PLD/RDM sounds completely viable given the information presented in this thread. That is, if you are simply questioning whether or not /RDM simply works. As far as increasing xp / hour, I tend to wonder on that if it helps any for the party. Because party usually seems dependent on how much dmg vs healing is done and adding refresh, so if the PLD/RDM is able to hold hate and take less damage than PLD/WAR, then absolutely, certainly, that's a great find.

In most circumstances, a PLD/RDM will take less damage than a PLD/WAR simply because of Blink. Defense is the same, except PLD/RDM periodically avoids 6-12 more attacks per fight depending on a bit of luck (not being hit through Flash) and number of Flashes per fight (a WHM in the party can potentially double the number of Blinks used.) I'm not a big fan of Defender tanking.

However, if PLD/RDM doesn't increase xp / hour, what would it really matter? That would still prove it being viable as long as xp doesn't suffer nor party members.

Even if it didn't increase EXP/hour, it works at least under certain conditions. That's valuable knowledge, as it opens up more possibilities for Mission fights, BCNM/ENM/Battlefield fights, etc.

Slight update. I've got full AF now (GODDAMN THAT WAS ANNOYING. Took me like 12 hours to get the stupid Surcoat...but it looks and feels so good...) My Enhancing is as of now 19 points below cap; I plan on skilling up 4-5 points for the next 4-5 days, and hopefully I'll have made plenty of progress on my RDM levelling by then. The division in skill caps post-60 is both a blessing and a penalty - my Enhancing will only go up by 2 per level (by 1 maybe ever 5-6 levels or so). This means I'll have a significantly easier time keeping it up, but of course, my overall skill will be lower than if it kept going up at the current rate (like 4 points per level.)

Because PLD/BLU seems to be a popular topic, I decided to look into it, now that Studio Gobli has once again pulled through with damage formulas for Blue Magic, VZX translated it, and Gulkeeva hosted the translated info. Refer to this page.

As far as I know, Blue Magic has no pure enfeebles with high hate attached to them, at least in the lower half of the levels, except possibly Sheep Song and Soporific (I'm assuming that, being versions of Sleep, they'll have moderately high ammounts of hate attached to it.) Of the two, only Soporific has a moderately low recast (26 seconds, as opposed to Sheep Song's 60.) However, Soporific has quite the hefty MP cost (38) and thus you'd probably be forced to use it sparingly to avoid stretching your MP too thin; besides, at that MP cost, you may be better off just using Cure III for the double benefit of taking some healing load off of the mages. Healing Breeze has a high MP cost as well, so it'd only be efficient if you can cure many people (4+) at once, and at a 4.5 second casting time, you'd need potent Slow and really good timing to pull it off (for comparison, Utsusemi: Ichi is a 4-second cast.) Thus, that's an iffy and situational spell at best. Therefor, with the possible exception of those two spells, all other hate from /BLU would have to come through raw damage. I'm guessing Magical blue spells are based on your Blue Magic skill for accuracy, so I'm assuming these are a no-go as far as PLD/BLU using them against VT/IT mobs for hate goes. Thus, we turn to Physical Blue Magic.

If you look at the Blue magic data, and as was observed quickly by the Blue Mage community, Bludgeon has higher damage potential than most pre-38 spells, and has a lower MP cost than the spells that can come close to its damage. Bludgeon's base DMG cap is 21; you would hit this cap at 81 Blue Magic skill (/26 BLU). It has a 30% CHR modifier, which would apply to all three hits. Assuming 0 fSTR and 50 CHR, the total DMG would be about 34. Assuming all three hits land, that'd be 102 damage. Of course, a PLD/BLU would NEED all three hits to consistently land if he's hoping to hold hate through damage. The logical solution would be Sushi; Cocoon is already granting a 50% Defense Bonus, which is the equivalent of eating food and having Defender full-time (without the Attack penalty) so eating Sushi is definetely an option. Bludgeon has Flash's casting time, and an 11.75 second recast. With Haste up, that'd be reduced to 9.98 seconds (let's round up to 10 for simplicity.) Bludgeon has a 16 MP cost; a tick is 2.5 seconds (one in-game minute.) With Auto Refresh + Refresh alone, that's 4 MP/tick, exactly 16 MP per 10 seconds. Thus, the spell "pays for itself," much like Flash and the key PLD/RDM enfeebles.

Flash is enough to secure hate for the first seconds of the fight. It would be followed up immediately by a Bludgeon. Assuming you were to Bludgeon for ~100 damage every 10 seconds, and Flash every 37, holding hate would be a possibility. If all these numbers hold true, and PLD/BLU can hold hate, let's evaluate the combination. A PLD/BLU would essentially have 20% more Defense than a defense food-eating PLD/RDM or PLD/WAR, or a full-time Defender + Sushi PLD/WAR due to Cocoon. With Sushi, it'd have significantly more Accuracy than the traditional PLD/WAR or PLD/RDM, or 33% more Attack than a Defender + Sushi PLD/WAR. Because its main two hate spells have 0.5 second casting time, assuming our calculated Bludgeon damage is accurate, and with increased accuracy from Sushi, a PLD/BLU would have both high TP gain (no blinked hits means more TP gained from being hit and from Shield Mastery as opposed to /RDM, far more time spent swinging at the mob, and much higher Accuracy) and a significantly higher damage output, once again due to higher melee accuracy and Bludgeon spam. As an added bonus, assuming he/she holds hate and the combo works, a PLD/BLU post-60 would have little trouble landing most hits on Vorpal Blade. Magic Bursting post-50 may also be a good way to get some extra hate.

What circumstances would probably be necessary for PLD/BLU to work? Well, Sushi would most likely be a must in order for Bludgeon to work efficiently; thus, PLD/BLU against Colibris is not an option. Without Provoke, Flash would be practically necessary; Bludgeon would also be pretty much necessary to hold hate through damage, so the strategy wouldn't work any earlier than 37; however, it's also relatively MP-intensive, much like /RDM, so it would definetely fall short without Refresh, setting the bar higher once again at 41. By then, High Breath Mantle is available, which is always a plus. As usual, Haste is critical to have. High +Enmity would be recommended to give you that extra edge over the DDs, since now you're competing with their damage more than ever. So, if the combo works, and assuming you EXP in ToAU areas (very little reasons not to, as the EXP is crazy) then the combo's dominance would be from levels 41-~54, and from ~61 through ~66. The gap in between is due to the Lesser Colibri levels, and its "dominance" ends at 66 because at this point /RDM gets Phalanx, which might give /BLU a good run for its money in terms of endurance. However, /BLU would continue to offer higher offense, so in theory it would continue to be useful until 75.

With all this said, I now plan on levelling BLU to at the very least 18 just to see if the Bludgeon numbers are accurate (of course, I will expect lower damage due to Level 18 Blue Magic Skill as opposed to Level 30) and if they hold true, then I will continue to level BLU 'til 37 and give it a shot.

[Slip]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

Cocoon for +Def and Sushi for +Acc sounds fairly nice, especially since you can use Dorado Sushi there and snag an extra +3 Emnity in the deal.

One thing I'm curious about -> with Pld/Rdm have you been working with Ancient Magic bursts at all yet? Granted, AM's not particularly efficient mp-wise but it's useful for speed at some levels in the later part of the chain if the black mage(s) can afford it and it's also a fun test of how much hate you can hold.

[Armando]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

I did see a bit of AMs but they were far and few, mainly a BLM that would cast Burst every 15 minutes or so to kill a Colibri. Usually it would either kill it, or the DDs would kill it right afterwards, so I didn't actually have to "deal" with it. I usually end up using Cover for AM, though.

[Slip]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

I'm assuming those Bursts weren't part of skillchain->mb either then correct?

Not a big deal to need cover for that but it does give me a better sense of the level of hate you were generally running at.

[Armando]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

No, not part of a SC/MB, I didn't actually use Cover on that BLM. Like I said, it usually killed it or the DDs would kill it right after. I should've worded that better I meant to say, the few instances I've dealt with AM have been MBs (as PLD/WAR,) and I usually use Cover in those situations.

[Celeal]

Re: Tanking as PLD/RDM - it works!

For PLD/BLU + Sushi + Cocoon, I think the advantage (in theory) is the increase of DoT, and make the fight end faster. I am leveling BLU at this moment, and I may try to PLD/BLU or WAR/BLU once my BLU hit lvl 30's XD. However, in addition to using Bludgeon to keep hate, I am thinking about spamming Head Butt (a chance of stun), if and only if the chance of the stun effect from Head Butt is not effected by the amount of Blue Magic Skill.