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**Armando** · 04-30-2006, 01:24 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

More data. All tests were performed on Too Weak Giant Spiders in East Altepa Desert, as PLD52/WHM26, with 163 +13 Shield Skill (+23 if I'm using Master Shield).

---
Aspis (Size 1)
Shield rate: 22/34 = 64.71%
Average reduction: 16.18%
---
Aspis (Size 1)
Shield rate: 27/42 = 64.29%
Average reduction: 16.07%
---
Aspis (Size 1)
Shield rate: 28/52 = 53.85%
Average reduction: 13.46%
---
Master Shield (Size 2)
Shield rate: 36/105 = 34.29%
Average reduction: 15.43
---
Master Shield (Size 2)
Shield rate: 17/45 = 37.78%
Average reduction: 17.00%
---
Master Shield (Size 2)*
Shield rate: 31/70 = 44.29%
Average reduction: 19.93%
---

I was surprised with the results. I didn't block significantly more often! I was expecting all my samples to be hitting the 65% ceiling. The only reason I can find for this data to be so close to the tests done on EM-T beetles would be that on both mobs, my shielding rate was already capped. But if this were true, it raises an interesting point - my near-capped skill +13 was enough to cap my shielding rate on EM-T mobs? Then, my shielding rate shouldn't be much lower on ITs.

Also, as a way of comparing the different sizes, I've determined the proc rates needed to reduce average damage by 20%.
Size 1: 80%
Size 2: 44.45%
Size 3: 33.34%
Size 4: 25%?

The 80% proc rate (which is seemingly impossible) required for Size 1 shields to reduce damage by 20% speaks a lot about how ineffective they are. Size 2 has a more realistic requirement, but I wasn't able to meet it consistently. On the other hand, my lowest recorded proc rate on Size 3 shields was 32.94%, and I had many close to the 40% range, while only a 33.34% proc rate is needed to reduce average damage by 20%. Size 3 seems like the clear winner in terms of effectiveness between sizes 1 through 3.. The number for Size 4 shields is based off of the assumption that they reduce damage by 80% per shield block. A 25% proc rate is reasonable if you ask me, so they'd probably perform similarly to Size 3 shields.

*I was starting to lose my patience at this point, as I'm at the 80% evasion ceiling when fighting these, so I took on 3 Giant Spiders at the same time for this test. I was positioned so that I could shield attacks from all spiders.

**Nodachi** · 05-01-2006, 12:18 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Man this is great data, hats off to compiling it all.

Just a quick question. Is there a clear cut way to differ between shield sizes? It doesn't actually say in the description on the item right? I take it buckler and small types like the Aspi you tested are size 1, and stuff like say... Koenig shield would be 3-4, but I'm a bit unclear on how to differenciate between them all.

And it sort of appears from this it's just better to go with the larger size if skill is high enough huh? Even though the proc rate is lower than smaller sized shields, the amount of damage reduced more than makes up for it.

Sorry just now beginning PLD, and really intruiged by all of this lol.

**Tirrock** · 05-01-2006, 01:16 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

It really is intersting data. Size 1 and 2 shields going off less often than size 3... I'd love to find out how size 4 shields rate (if koeing is size 4...). I'm not even sure what counts as size 5.

I'd help out, but my PLD is 45, and I can't really tell what is size 3/4/5 for shields that WHM can use. (Plus my shield isn't close to capped on WHM...) ><

**little ninja** · 05-01-2006, 01:29 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

while were on the subject of shield skills. are you guys noticing more skill ups then normal? i know while goofing around in the new areas my shield skill jumped by 4 lvls. an im a bst. tanking isnt my specialty. got the mob to near death then released. an just in doing that it went up pretty fast. not to mention i notice shield kicked in alot more. from takin 60-70 a hit to teens to was also pretty nice.

so can we rate the new shield Tariquh a size 3-4 shield ? also OP how were your skill up in the testing process? not sure if i saw any data on skills ups during that time. an by the way very nice finding. keep up the top notch work.

**JP_Ikari** · 05-01-2006, 02:39 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

nice compilation, now I just need someone with 267 +21 Shield skill with Koenig Shield T_T.

JP

**Armando** · 05-01-2006, 09:29 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Just a quick question. Is there a clear cut way to differ between shield sizes? It doesn't actually say in the description on the item right? I take it buckler and small types like the Aspi you tested are size 1, and stuff like say... Koenig shield would be 3-4, but I'm a bit unclear on how to differenciate between them all.

Size 1: Bone shields, aspis, targes, bucklers
Size 2: Round shields, both wooden and metallic (see Faerie/Nymph Shield)
Size 3: Kite shields, including General's and Koenig Shield
Size 4: Tower shields and Tatami Shield

And it sort of appears from this it's just better to go with the larger size if skill is high enough huh? Even though the proc rate is lower than smaller sized shields, the amount of damage reduced more than makes up for it.

Pretty much. The proc rate is lower, but not to a significant degree, so you get more reduction per hit for a comparable proc rate.

It really is intersting data. Size 1 and 2 shields going off less often than size 3... I'd love to find out how size 4 shields rate (if koeing is size 4...). I'm not even sure what counts as size 5.

Regarding proc rates, like I said, luck seems to play a large role, I'd have a high proc rate on one mob, and then a fairly lower one on the next with the same shield and skill. While it's possible to get a 30% proc rate with any shield size, Size 1 was the only one that got close to 65%. In other words, shield size seems to determine the probabilities of getting a high proc rate rather than setting its proc rate in stone. As for Size 5...Aegis is considered to be Size 5, though I'd consider that a misnomer - it's supposed to shield as often as a Size 1, while reducing damage per hit by as much as a Size 4.

so can we rate the new shield Tariquh a size 3-4 shield ? also OP how were your skill up in the testing process? not sure if i saw any data on skills ups during that time. an by the way very nice finding. keep up the top notch work.

Somepage is listing Tariqah as a round shield, but doesn't have the size listed. I'm not high enough to use it, so to determine its size someone would have to let himself get beaten on for a moderately large ammount of times for fair damage (30-50 was enough for me to determine the percentages) and then compare the highest shielded hit to the highest non-shielded hit.

As for skill-ups, they were pretty good. Each test took about 4-8 minutes (depending on how long I lasted), with downtime in between. It took me at most 3-4 mobs for a point of skill, and at some points I gained a whole point on the same mob. All resting, typing, and calculating considered, I'd say it took over three hours to get my skill from 155 to 163 from what I can recall, which is good to me.

Glad you guys found this info useful ^^

**Tirrock** · 05-01-2006, 09:44 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Ah, I was thinking tower shields counted as 5's and aegis was off in it's own little world (which it is). Thanks.

**Nyse** · 05-04-2006, 07:34 AM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Very interesting info indeed, thanks for sharing. I had been wondering about this for quite some time as well, but decided to just stick with what I was comfortable with. (kite shield) I feel like I've made the right choice.

I haven't partied since the shield update, but plan to this weekend. I'm 20k tnl, so that ought to give me enough time to cap my skill, and am anxious to see how fast it goes.

**FenrirXIII** · 05-04-2006, 07:54 AM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Hey all new poster long time pld. Nice data on the shields. Just for future testing of my own, may I ask how you count the shield blocks best? Any tips to get the most accurate count?

And then as far as my own experience goes, I'd use a Musketeer commander's shield (size 2-buckler) since 63. My shield skill was way under par about 135. Now its 251(+20 from gear, 231 raw). I block about 2/5ths the time on catoblepas in bibiki. (about 40% really). But this of course is just eye-balling it. I also switch to a tower shield every now and then. For VT mobs. When I'd use it on catoblepas, it'd maybe have a low proc rate of 1-5 times per fight (30% or less not sure). But it'd also take those 120-140 dmg hits down to 8, 15, 24, etc. Its like the hit didn't even happen. This was also all done before the expansion & update. I haven't played since april 1st

Anyway! Were these results taken before or after the update, OP?

-Lac (teh new guy)

**Paladin X** · 05-04-2006, 07:46 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

I was surprised with the results. I didn't block significantly more often! I was expecting all my samples to be hitting the 65% ceiling. The only reason I can find for this data to be so close to the tests done on EM-T beetles would be that on both mobs, my shielding rate was already capped. But if this were true, it raises an interesting point - my near-capped skill +13 was enough to cap my shielding rate on EM-T mobs? Then, my shielding rate shouldn't be much lower on ITs.

I think that your shield blocking rate will be much lower on ITs, because AGI also has an effect in the rate at which you shield block.

When fighting TW mobs your AGI is much higher that your AGI would be at the mobs lvl, so you will evade/parry/shield block more not because of your shield skill, but because of your natural AGI. While your AGI is not that much higher when fighting EM-T mobs, you will still have an adavantage because of gear or food, or even the type of mob you are fighting.

When you are fighting IT mobs, unless you intentionally add AGI into you equip, the lack of AGI will be more apparant due to the higher stats of the mob you are tanking.

Like i said before i have no proof, this is just speculation on my part.

**Armando** · 05-06-2006, 07:42 AM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Oops! I didn't notice these replies, I'm sorry

Once again, it was my pleasure to test this, so the thanks are unnecessary :3

Just for future testing of my own, may I ask how you count the shield blocks best? Any tips to get the most accurate count?

I counted any hit where I could see the shield animation go off as a shielded hit, and I only counted landed hits towards the total number of hits taken. However, counting was a bit tricky. I had to stay still or the shielding animation wouldn't pop up sometimes. I eventually had to refrain from casting Regen, too, because being in the casting animation while taking hits would sometimes cause the shield animation to not go off. I think that problem arises when you're doing the spell's animation itself, because while it did happen once or twice, Cure III wasn't much of a problem.

The main problem is that, even using a Size 3 shield, the highest shielding numbers almost overlap with the lowest non-shielded damage numbers, making it hard to tell by the damage alone. This becomes even worse with Size 2 and Size 1, because the damage ranges do overlap. In fact, if you don't pay attention to the min/max shield/nonshielded damages, the Size 1 damages overlap so much with the normal damage, at first glance one thinks it's not reducing damage at all. This makes it imperative that the tester is able to see the shielding animation.

And then as far as my own experience goes, I'd use a Musketeer commander's shield (size 2-buckler) since 63.

Bucklers are Size 1

Anyway! Were these results taken before or after the update, OP?

All were post-update.

I think that your shield blocking rate will be much lower on ITs, because AGI also has an effect in the rate at which you shield block.

This is quite possible, but as an Elvaan PLD, I only had a total of AGI+4, and some of those Ts were 3 levels higher than me, borderline VT. My AGI should've already been lower than the mob's DEX. This also operates under the assumption that AGI is checked against a stat; it could simply be an added bonus that isn't checked against anything (like the modifiers in WS.) Actually, the fact that there wasn't a noticeable difference between TWs and Ts leads me to believe that AGI is a stand-alone modifier, or my shielding rate would've been lower against Ts. Maybe my low Elvaan AGI is the reason I can't reach the shielding ceilcing consistently? When I'm done with RDM, I think I'll go back with some +AGI equipment and do a bit more testing. Regardless, I appreciate the thought you put into it, even if it's speculation up until now.

I think I'll go buy the expansion, learn Cocoon on BLU, and test some IT mobs soon >.> By the way, if anyone wants to contribute any testing, please do. The thought of having to do three or four tests with all shield sizes using AGI equipment against TWs, Ts, and ITs (and an extra set without AGI equipment against ITs) with large sample sizes all on my own almost makes me want to not do it

Oh, and if you test Size 4 shields, please, try to keep track and take note of the highest damage you took on a shielded hit and on a non-shielded hit throughout the different fights, so that we can determine its damage reduction. Try to get large sample sizes so you can be sure that you did get the highest possible damage.

**Djonma** · 05-09-2006, 01:25 AM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Do you know if distance from the mob affects blocking?
The further away you are from the mob, the more you will Parry attacks, so there should be a 'sweet' distance for blocking as well.

**FenrirXIII** · 05-09-2006, 05:49 AM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

That distance thing seems like a bunch of monkey**8hio to me. ^.^; Ranged attacks are effected by distance. Shield and parry are both melee oriented skills, so i'd doubt theres actual -proof- that distance effects either. In the name of fair science though, someone with windower and the distance plugin, could fight 100+ monsters at two seperate distances (same mobs, over and over) and see if the results come out largely different. I'd say with a 3-4% margin of error.

'Cause thats also like saying, distance from the mob effects how hard your melee attacks hit. Or your distance from the mob effects how effective your spells will be against it. :/

**Armando** · 06-29-2006, 09:39 PM

Re: Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Bump! Now that I've reached Level 55, I can finally equip Scutum, a Size 4 shield. Couldn't find any on the AH (in fact, they hardly seem to sell) so I went and made one myself for about 90k (vs the AH's 50k.) Funny thing about it is that aside from looking like a chess board, it's actually smaller than the standard kite shield. Anyways, I took it out for a quick spin in Quicksand Caves (again.) The first fight gave me a vague range for its damage reduction; I did a second fight without having Protect or defense food up in order to get higher numbers, and managed to pinpoint that its damage reduction per hit is 75%. Both fights were performed as 53 PLD/RDM with 171 + 13 Shield Skill.

1st fight:
Shield rate: 32/102 = 31.3725%
Average reduction: 23.529375%

2nd fight:
Shield rate: 16/63 = 25.3968%
Average reduction: 19.0476%

Total:
Shield rate: 48/165 = 29.09...%
Average reduction: 21.818175%

The total proc rate for Size 3 from all my previous tests combined is 225/524 = 42.9389%, which would produce an average reduction of 27.91285%. While Size 4 doesn't perform badly, Size 3 seems to be all-around the best. So, the order of efficiency is Size 3 > Size 4 > Size 2 > Size 1. For the sake of comparison...

Size 3 total shield rate: 225/524 = 42.9389%
Size 3 total average reduction: 25.76334%

Size 4 total shield rate: 48/165 = 29.09...%
Size 4 total average reduction: 21.818175%

Size 2 total shield rate: 398/1036 = 38.4170%
Size 2 total average reduction: 17.28765%

Size 1 total shield rate: 181/310 = 58.3871%
Size 1 total average reduction: 14.596775%

Also, my little chart that shows how much proc rate is required for the different shield types to achieve a 20% average reduction needs to be corrected with the Size 4 actual Size 4 damage reduction (75%, not 80%.)

Originally posted by Armando

Also, as a way of comparing the different sizes, I've determined the proc rates needed to reduce average damage by 20%.
Size 1: 80%
Size 2: 44.45%
Size 3: 33.34%
Size 4: 26.67%

Announcement

Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

Shield data: Size 2 vs Size 3

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