Want to be a Paladin, but...

[Bushido]

Hi everybody, I'm pretty new here... just wanted to ask a question.

I've been reading all sorts of FFXI forums, and people are saying that VIT means very, very little the higher up you go up. Like, having a Paladin tank at instead of a Warrior at Lv. 70 would be only a one, or two-hit difference in whether you died or not.

Is this even remotely true?? Does defense become moot as you get higher?

I have to find out. I've always wanted to be a PLD (I'm currently Lv. 10 WAR on Quetzalcoatl) and this question is swaying my vision.

[Drachol]

Paladins are better at holding hate, which means everyone else in the party wont be dieing. Dunno about the damage difference, probably right, haven't partied with a WAR in a long while. VIT is always important, no matter what level.

[Grizzlebeard]

Not sure about being better at holding hate but I know I have real issues keeping hate with certain warriors I know. Also remember that the warrior AF body has more Enmity on it than the full set of Pld AF armour put together. :sweat:

Lately I've grown increasingly dubious about the benefits of Def or Vit on my role as a tank. A few levels back I geared up with a Defense orientation to see the difference it made. With Phalanx x2 and a couple of other little tweaks I increased my Def by 30. On IT xp party mobs I noticed zero difference in attacks evaded before and after Sentinel + Defender. I'd stress that I don't use Defender that often anyway because the Def increase doesn't come anywhere near the total drop off in damage I suffer on xp mobs. Currently, my gear is now Vit biased and yet my Vit was higher at 49, roughly +19, than it is now even with three pieces of AF and a Gluttony sword. Despite that, I haven't noticed a great deal of difference between damage mitigated at +8 Vit, as i was at 50th, to the +15 Vit I'm at now. Bearing in mind +7 of that Vit cost me 350k and if I want to buy myself another +2 it's going to cost me a minimum of 110k for a Merc Earring. I'm one level off equipping my Gallant legs and Beak Mantle +1 which will yield me an additional +1 point of Vit. Still kind of stunned our entire set of AF only yields +4 Vit, 135 Def, and +8 Enmity compared to +5 Vit, 135 Def, and +15 Enmity on the warrior's AF.

Now, the bonuses on each set make me begin to wonder whether I should be looking at new stats as a paladin rather than the old favourites of Vit and Def. As a hume my accuracy has not given me any problems and the addition of a Lifebelt recently yielded no significant improvements in my ability. Now I'm leaning more towards HP plus gear but as most of the mobs I can farm for these items are perma-camped by bots on Fenrir the prospect of getting HP earrings, for example, is a very daunting and expensive option.

So, not sure if it answered your question but I don't feel the simple solution of gear up on Vit and you'll be a superior tank holds water in my opinion.

[Ariesknight]

See below:

[Ariesknight]

I definitely think PLD's have better hate holding abilites than WAR's do. Ever asked yourself why WAR's have +15 Enmity? It's because if they were to tank, they'd need it. WAR's should not be wearing their Fighter's Lorica (body AF piece) if they are not the tank, its +8 Enmity is stupid for a damage dealer looking to avoid hate. As a PLD our +Enmity is very useful since now not only do each of our sword swings add considerably more hate but so do we with our abilities such as Shield Bash, Sentinel, Cure and Flash. I find taking two hits, followed by Flash, which opens a casting time for Cure III to heal you a good 200HP will secure plenty of hate to start the fight. By that time Provoke will be ready again (after voking the mob off the puller) so use it. Then it is just casting Cure III every other couple of hits with Flash between them and Shield Bash if things turn nasty hate-wise. We have the tools to gain too much hate at one given time, as PLD's the key is in securing 1 and maintaining more enmity point than the WAR towards the mob, not 4000 more, which means if things turn real ugly (not often) you can be voked off and your life spared. At a mere 55 with Enmity+2 from my Gauntlets and Enmity +5 (or is it +4) from WAR's AF so far and +5 Enmity from SAM's I've had no trouble keeping hate from a hate-concious WAR which I've PTied with many a times.
EDIT: About VIT and DEF. I find VIT causes a greater reduction over time of damage taken than DEF when DEF exceeds 400 or so through the use of Food (or Defender if you are too cheap to buy food...never use Defender and Food at the same time since the reduction to damage taken is negligible---unless 1 hit point will mean life or death).

[JP_Ikari]

Hehe, hey Grizz, I'm just wondering, but you said you didn't notice any damage mitigated from what you had when you were 50th and now?? Just trying to understand it since, if you think about it, if there's no damage difference, isn't that a good thing since you're fighting higher level mobs than you were during the 50's?? I dunno just me. Anyway to the the original poster, no it isn't just all about DEF, the higher we go, the more VIT we really need. Just read up Rugals guide, it's all true (at least up to where I'm at.)

JP


P.S. , 1 month going on 2 without playing the game. I get depressed even more and more not leveling my PLD.

[Damane]

Originally posted by Ariesknight

EDIT: About VIT and DEF. I find VIT causes a greater reduction over time of damage taken than DEF when DEF exceeds 400 or so through the use of Food (or Defender if you are too cheap to buy food...never use Defender and Food at the same time since the reduction to damage taken is negligible---unless 1 hit point will mean life or death).

hm? not take food and NOT use defender at same tame? you know that the dmg you take will be reduced immense when you have both on... just in case to know for you

[JP_Ikari]

Originally posted by Damane
hm? not take food and NOT use defender at same tame? you know that the dmg you take will be reduced immense when you have both on... just in case to know for you

Defender doesn't boost up VIT, only Def, and I think he meant that by increasing just your DEF (at high levels), it won't even mean much anymore since the decrease on the damage that you take is negligble(sp?). I am wondering though, does Defender generate hate? I'm having a hard time telling if it does. I particularly stopped using Defender after a certain while since I was hitting for 0's when I was exping. 0 dmg = 0 hate generated, and 0 tp build-up. That's why I stopped using it.

JP

[Ziguld]

500def Byakko hits you for 250
999def Byakko hits you for 60

Def still matters, just not that critical for exp pts.

[Grizzlebeard]

I'm confused, I thought Defense was supposed to increase avoidance not mitigate damage. Surely a higher defense would cause total damage over time to be reduced due to avoiding more attacks rather than reducing damage per hit, which is what I'd expect from Vitality, as you have posted.

[kuroitsuru]

nope. avoiding hits is based on agi and your evasion skill, parry skill, and shield skill. def and vit both reduce the numerical dmg you take but in different ways that I dont really know off hand so im gonna leave it at that.

[Ariesknight]

Yeah at my Lvl, 55, the difference between 400 DEF (Food+Protect 3) and 500+ with Food+Protect 3+ Defender is either 1 or 0 damage reduction per hit. I am sure for HNM and Bosses DEF does still make a larger difference but in XP pts after a certain point def doesn't give a significant reduction. Would you sacrifice a damaging hit which gives Enmity (from that lovely Enmity+ AF) and gives you TP for a devastating 530 damage Spirits Within for 0-1 point less damage per hit? Didn't think so, using Defender and hitting high defense mobs for 0 is just no way to play PLD. So you were right as to what i was saying JP_Ikari. And from what i have noticed these gain hate:
Sentinel, Shield Bash, Flash, Cure III and IV (just got now at lvl 55, btw was this reduced from a lvl 60 spell?) are the most effective for hate. Defender doesn't seem to work for me hate-wise, then again I hardly use it. Although I've heard theories that any and every ability produces a bit of hate no matter how small.

P.S I tanked for Limit 2 quest. Bad idea. Got it done though! Cost me a bit of exp but worth it ^_^. Anyone know what level those 3 Boreal mobs were 'cos they had some sweet attacks (well the Couerl one shotted me from 850 HP with it's Lightning Strike or whatever it is, yeah that was fun).

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Grizzlebeard
I'm confused, I thought Defense was supposed to increase avoidance not mitigate damage. Surely a higher defense would cause total damage over time to be reduced due to avoiding more attacks rather than reducing damage per hit, which is what I'd expect from Vitality, as you have posted.

Unfortunately your concept of Defense is flawed, Grizz. As can be seen by several threads and websites regarding FFXI, defense and VIT has their own unique ways of mitigating damage. I even pointed this out in the sticked Paladin FAQ, and it is also stated by a FFXI dev in some interview.

Basically they both aid in damage mitigation but use different checks. DEF checks against the monster's ATK, VIT checks against the monster's STR. ATK/DEF has a logarithmic curve, with diminishing returns for extremely high defense (i.e. when DEF>>>ATK), whereas VIT-STR offers linear returns until it hits the cap (generally 1 VIT will reduce each hit's damage by 1).

[Grizzlebeard]

Thanks for clarifying that Rugal although realistically I'd expect to see someone clad head to toe in plate armour with a higher defense mitigate damage better than someone with a greater stamina (Vit). Shame there is so little return for gearing up defensively.

Ultimately, I was looking for a noticeable way to reduce my total damage taken because I'm a firm believer in the theory discussed in your FAQ thread that damage taken erodes Hate. Neither gearing up with Def or Vit in mind has produced a significant benefit to date. I'm sure this may change at later levels when I have access to Adaman and AF2 but the prospect of spending the next 15 levels with the same gear equipped, barring a Jelly Ring, gives me serious concerns with regards to my Hate-keeping abilities compared to DD's abilities to dish out immense amounts of damage. I guess I'm wondering how my Hate-keeping scales with their Hate-stealing. :sweat:

[Damane]

Originally posted by Ariesknight
Yeah at my Lvl, 55, the difference between 400 DEF (Food+Protect 3) and 500+ with Food+Protect 3+ Defender is either 1 or 0 damage reduction per hit. I am sure for HNM and Bosses DEF does still make a larger difference but in XP pts after a certain point def doesn't give a significant reduction. Would you sacrifice a damaging hit which gives Enmity (from that lovely Enmity+ AF) and gives you TP for a devastating 530 damage Spirits Within for 0-1 point less damage per hit? Didn't think so, using Defender and hitting high defense mobs for 0 is just no way to play PLD. So you were right as to what i was saying JP_Ikari. And from what i have noticed these gain hate:
Sentinel, Shield Bash, Flash, Cure III and IV (just got now at lvl 55, btw was this reduced from a lvl 60 spell?) are the most effective for hate. Defender doesn't seem to work for me hate-wise, then again I hardly use it. Although I've heard theories that any and every ability produces a bit of hate no matter how small.

P.S I tanked for Limit 2 quest. Bad idea. Got it done though! Cost me a bit of exp but worth it ^_^. Anyone know what level those 3 Boreal mobs were 'cos they had some sweet attacks (well the Couerl one shotted me from 850 HP with it's Lightning Strike or whatever it is, yeah that was fun).

I can guess you didnt fight alot mobs that give you 300 exp + in chains with earth staff equiped and jelly ring. you will notice a difference in takeing dmg with defender on or off.